Mr. Ockham would say:
"There was no 1MW of heat to get rid of."
Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th
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Water meter readings: such a simple thing could tell us so much.
No. The level of elaboration in fantasies of how Rossi could have disposed on 1MW without obvious signs is high, and no doubt when water evaporative cooling is ruled out there will be some other idea.I admit - if you pay no attention to plausibility there will likely be some way that reactor could have delivered 1MW to the non-existent customer and some secret equipment controlled by Rossi in the enclosure. For all I know the "water cooling" fantasy can be simply knocked on the head by one of:
- site inspection (no suitable taps inside the area)
- utility records (the supply was metered and bills will show enormous quantities not used)
- lack of suitable equipment (Rossi has no records of suitable cooling equipment being bought for the simple reason it was not).
But in our position of lack of knowledge here we don't know - we can just consider how extraordinarily complex the Rossi excuses are getting. -
But in our position of lack of knowledge here we don't know - we can just consider how extraordinarily complex the Rossi excuses are getting.
It's actually quite simple. What did the water meters show over time? With IH's careful checking of the building, roof and all, are you to tell me that they never thought to check this? Certainly there are water bills to go along as well.
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It's actually quite simple. What did the water meters show over time? With IH's careful checking of the building, roof and all, are you to tell me that they never thought to check this? Certainly there are water bills to go along as well.
I'd hope so - in which case this is one little detail IH will be able to knock on the head quickly. I'm 99% confident of that - since the chance of Rossi using 1MW or anything like of evaporative cooling, given all the other indications, is in my judgement very low indeed. How about you?
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To me water cooling is not a good route for AR to take on the plausibility scale. There would need to be a lot of plumbing work done in the space to do this type of cooling. These standard warehouse spaces don't typically come with large drains in the center of the floor. And this is not the type of operation where AR could attach a hose to a sink and drain the water outside. This would be industrial level water cooling that would require plumbing work by a contractor to be undertaken. The work would require permits, and permission from the landlord to modify the existing plumbing. Having worked with warehouse landlords I would say most or all of them I know would not approve of this level of water cooling in their space. There would be too much liability with flooding etc.
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I'd hope so - in which case this is one little detail IH will be able to knock on the head quickly. I'm 99% confident of that - since the chance of Rossi using 1MW or anything like of evaporative cooling, given all the other indications, is in my judgement very low indeed. How about you?
Maybe so. But why didn't they knock on it already, court filings and all?
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If it is illegal, I better not take any more hot showers and baths, and maybe avoid the hot cycle on my dishwasher and clothes washer.
We were talking about putting boiling hot water down the drain, and if you are showering in boiling water, either you have other problems or we'd better stay out of your way, Superman!
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Maybe so. But why didn't they knock on it already, court filings and all?
these "why not" questions have a certain polemic bias. As you have pointed out if Rossi claims water cooling for real that can easily be refuted from discoverable evidence. The IH answer is no way meant to dot every i, cross every t. Nor could it. Rossi is free to claim all sorts of things later in the process, and IH free to refute them. Your indignation (whether real or rhetorical) here is not justified.
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To me water cooling is not a good route for AR to take on the plausibility scale. There would need to be a lot of plumbing work done in the space to do this type of cooling. These standard warehouse spaces don't typically come with large drains in the center of the floor. And this is not the type of operation where AR could attach a hose to a sink and drain the water outside. This would be industrial level water cooling that would require plumbing work by a contractor to be undertaken. The work would require permits, and permission from the landlord to modify the existing plumbing. Having worked with warehouse landlords I would say most or all of them I know would not approve of this level of water cooling in their space. There would be too much liability with flooding etc.
Indeed. It's all implausible. What would be used would be air cooling, possibly with some water evap cooling boost. And then there would be visible signs of it. It would not make sense to hide it. -
IH Fanboy wrote:
If it is illegal, I better not take any more hot showers and baths, and
maybe avoid the hot cycle on my dishwasher and clothes washer.We were talking about putting boiling hot water down the
drain, and if you are showering in boiling water, either you have other
problems or we'd better stay out of your way, Superman!We are not talking about putting boiling hot water down the drain--why did you suppose that?
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Your indignation (whether real or rhetorical) here is not justified.
Please don't take anything personally. I present questions (some rhetorical but mostly not) in attempts to get reactions from players, so that I can better understand the probabilities in play. Jed clearly is motivated to expose Rossi as a fraud, which is actually quite helpful in the sense that it focuses the discussion on provable facts. The water meter readings are the next logical set of data that would be great to have in this analysis.
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The water meter readings are the next logical set of data that would be great to have in this analysis.
I bet dollars to doughnuts that IH Lawyers have already obtained copies of electrical and water use invoices.
If there is a smart meter there, they could read the electrical use for every single day. -
note that process was endothermic with high efficiency, not smuggler's cooling though the sewers.
Don't be more royalist than the king himself.
If you add up all that he said as sure, things don't connect, that is all.
For some time we imagined he was just hiding details and manipulating his spectators and competitors, but here he plays his last card, and I'm no more impressed, I'm devastated.
Not for him (he deserve justice, whatever it is), not for IH (they took the risk rationally) but for all sincere NiH efforts.
Maybe we will have to go back to PdD, à la Edmund Storms, à la Iwamura, à la Fralick...
Misled, that is the English term I think.
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We were talking about putting boiling hot water down the drain, and if you are showering in boiling water, either you have other problems or we'd better stay out of your way, Superman!
No, 70C water down the drain.
Temperature limitations for PVC-U DWV pipe
For example, thermal cycling tests for PVC drainage pipes require that a test installation withstand alternating 90 second cycles of 34 litres of water at 88°C to 95°C with 34 litres of water at 10°C to 15°C without leakage or excessive deformation.
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If they haven't, they certainly should! But Dewey and Jed have tended to focus on no heat from the roof. Little mention of other possibilities, until recently by Jed (after it became an issue). Wouldn't they have forcefully argued no water cooling either all along if they already had those water use invoices?
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Wouldn't they have forcefully argued no water cooling either all along if they already had those water use invoices?
IH doesn't need to drag out any more proof until Discovery. They only trotted out enough to make their point so far.
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That assumes all heat is removed by the water. Did IH check the water meter over time? If not, why not?
All of the heat has to be removed by the water at times. For example, when the factory is closed down at night or on weekends. Rossi claims the reactor produces 1 MW constantly, 24/7, even on days when he also claimed it was turned off and disassembled. So the customer would need a way to dump the heat when the magical endothermic production equipment is not in use.There is no point to checking the water meter. It is not possible for a commercial building of this size to consume that much water. The water service line is 2 inches which is much too small.
It would be possible to have air cooling. But the air-cooling equipment would be large and readily visible. No such equipment was seen at this site. That is the point of the photographs uploaded by I.H.
More to the point, why on earth would Rossi take steps to hide the waste heat by flushing it with water? Even if the city could provide enough water, that would end up costing thousands of dollars more than air cooling. And hiding it makes no sense! Rather than hide the waste heat, he would want to show it to the experts from IH so they could confirm there actually is 1 MW. He claimed that he must hide the J.M. equipment, but there is no conceivable reason why anyone would hide a vent or a chiller.
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Maye this hypothetical cooling water for JMC is where that giant water meter should have went.
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I doubt that radiator in the photo above is for semi tractor. The connections are all wrong, and is way too big.
It looks like an industrial heat exchanger.
You apparently know a lot more about these things than I do, so I will take your word for it.Would you like to hazard a guess as to the capacity of that radiator? (How many BTUs per hour it can radiate.)
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Would you like to hazard a guess as to the capacity of that radiator? (How many BTUs per hour it can radiate.)
The big one in your picture? Or the semi tractor one?
The big one, in area, is similar to that one I posted a story of the installation, which was 600000 BTUh ( ~ 0.18 MWh).
The fan makes a big difference I would guess.Ged on ECW and I are having some difficulties that idea just today.
Why so many CFM with maximum humidity air (~100000 CFM) with a large fan, and yet some heat exchangers claiming to do the same amount of cooling with 26000-35000 CFM air? How does the air suddenly become able to move so much heat?
I guess it must become very hot air.
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As far as the semi tractor ones, I had no experience in fiddling with the radiators themselves, other than avoiding injuring them while poking around under the hood. They have big shutters on them for use in the North, cold starts generally, and cold day highway trips. They are oversize for the job, except maybe when hauling 100000 lbs of stuff up the big slope from Nevada into California.
