Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • Some possible alternatives have been listed in the recently published paper under the section "Industrial catalysis aspects", although in the preceding section it is pointed out that stabilizers often employed in commercial catalysts to decrease the loss of K may impede RM formation.


    K–Mn synthetic zeolites have also been shown a few years ago to emit Rydberg K upon heating: (PDF) Emission of highly excited electronic states of potassium from cryptomelane nanorods (researchgate.net)


    As well as some alkali-doped transition metal carbides and nitrides materials, several years ago: (PDF) Potassium at catalytic surfaces - Stability, electronic promotion and excitation (researchgate.net)


    Potassium apparently has to be bonded in a special way to get desorbed in a Rydberg state. This was mentioned for example in https://doi.org/10.1039/B817380J (2009) by Kotarba and Holmlid, citing this article: https://doi.org/10.1021/ja0542901


  • Thanks can, the route via K doped Fe oxides is clearly complex.


    I've been looking into another path to see whether it might be less complex to form H RM, inspired by some LENR research based on plasmas.

    The way Holmlid describes the formation of H RM by means of energy transfer from K RM seems to have some synergy with the principle of 'Penning mixtures' as used in some plasma based lamps.


    In the case of H RM the K RM could maybe serve as a quench gas, although a clear overview is missing with regards to the energy levels required to obtain Rydberg states of the various elements.


    Wiki offers a usefull overview of ionization energies:


    1920px-Ionization_energies_of_atoms_-_labeled_-_atomic_orbital_filling_indicated.svg.png


    An interesting example is the Sodium-vapor lamp principle.

    Here sodium vapor is used with Neon and Argon gas serving as quench gasses, although Sodium has a (much) lower ionization energy as Ne or Ar.

    Looking to the ionization energy of H (approx. 14 eV), Xe gas should be able to best serve as a quench gas without the aid of any alkali metal although the difference in ionization energy is small.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    I do not have much plasma physics knowledge, but I'm not sure if the processes have many similarities. The description the Penning mixture page on Wikipedia suggests that the inert gas (with high ionization energy) must first be excited. Then, as it de-excites, the quench gas is ionized.


    In the Rydberg matter (RM) formation process as described in the latest paper by Holmlid et al., the easily excited K atoms first form Rydberg matter. Then, the K RM formed interact with the H atoms adsorbed on the surface. It seems almost the other way around, and the formation of H RM does not have to go through excited states of H atoms.

  • It seems almost the other way around, and the formation of H RM does not have to go through excited states of H atoms.

    Electron spin pairing releases about 11eV/pair. This indirectly lowers the potential of electrons. No exited states needed.

    With H* its a bit more complicated as the charge generating orbits change, what directly lowers the potential of one electron.

  • Electron spin pairing releases about 11eV/pair. This indirectly lowers the potential of electrons. No exited states needed.

    With H* its a bit more complicated as the charge generating orbits change, what directly lowers the potential of one electron.

    How can we do to pairing electron spin in the case of experiments as NI+H way or Li+H for example ?

  • Where does this number come from?

    It's all in the standard write up. The spin pairing orbit is the electro-weak (1FC) component of electro-strong force (same a first derivative). You can directly see this energy in the 4-He enhanced binding force for the first electron.


    On a strong ordering inducing surface proton spins can align, what lead to the forming out of electron spin connections = SC state. So basically a H-H bond topologically looks like a 4-He nucleus for the first electron.

    All the calculated energies match perfectly with the experimental measured ones.

    But what is needed is a model that extends the H-H spin bond to a cluster of H. Clusters behave differently than single H-H bonds. R.Mills did perfect measurements for H*-H*, where as Holmlids measurements are way off due to cluster coupling.

  • can

    My thoughts on using plasma consisting of Hydrogen and a quench gas are based on the information that Rydberg atoms are commonly formed in a plasma environment based on wiki information:

    Rydberg atom:

    Quote

    Rydberg atoms form commonly in plasmas due to the recombination of electrons and positive ions; low energy recombination results in fairly stable Rydberg atoms, while recombination of electrons and positive ions with high kinetic energy often form autoionising Rydberg states.


    Condensation of Rydberg atoms forms Rydberg matter, most often observed in form of long-lived clusters.

    Adding a quench gas likely increases the efficiency of this process just like a mixture ionizes easier in a lamp application.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penning_mixture:

    Quote

    A very common Penning mixture of about 98–99.5% of neon with 0.5–2% of argon is used in some neon lamps, especially those rated at 110 volts. The mixture is easier to ionize than either neon or argon alone,


    You may be right in that this is a different process as Holmlid describes in latest paper by Holmlid et al.

    B.t.w. what I miss in Holmlid's paper is how H atoms migrate to H RM. There should be a step in between that forms H Rydberg atoms which in turn are clustered to H RM by condensation.


    But I think it may be worth looking into plasma options to produce UDH.

    There are LENR projects based on plasma, therefore I like to explore the options that also in these projects UDH/UDD plays a non-aware role.

    I am not an expert either, but maybe it sparks some creativity and comments of experts here.

  • It's all in the standard write up. The spin pairing orbit is the electro-weak (1FC) component of electro-strong force (same a first derivative). You can directly see this energy in the 4-He enhanced binding force for the first electron. [...]


    I was looking for a direct reference/source to better understand the origin of that value.


    B.t.w. what I miss in Holmlid's paper is how H atoms migrate to H RM. There should be a step in between that forms H Rydberg atoms which in turn are clustered to H RM by condensation.

    My understanding is that the H atoms adsorbed on the surface directly attach/incorporate themselves to the K RM clusters just outside the surface, forming mixed K–H RM clusters. There does not seem to be an intermediate step to excited H atoms, at least if enough K RM is present.


    It seems that the bond energy of adsorbed atoms with the RM clusters is higher than with the surface, and therefore they will be incorporated into the RM faster than they can thermally desorb on their own (so, since K RM is much more easily formed, H RM formation from adsorbed H atoms should be almost automatic, if K RM in sufficient density is available).


    The H atoms in the K–H RM clusters then fall into lower excitation levels down to H(1), presumably causing the ejection of K atoms from the RM in the process (since K atoms have occupied inner orbitals into which their excited electron cannot de-excite to); Fig 3E refers to this as "growth of purer H(RM) clusters".


    A few selected relevant excerpts from the explanation:


    Quote

    The electronic excitation energy or even more simply a Rydberg electron can be transferred from alkali atoms to hydrogen atoms or ions, thus forming hydrogen Rydberg atoms which condense to hydrogen Rydberg matter clusters [55]. Experiments detect mixed alkali-hydrogen clusters [56], which shows that the transfer of excitation energy to hydrogen probably goes via Rydberg matter clusters instead of via Rydberg atoms which was the process originally believed to be involved. [...]

    Quote

    [...] One common idea of the formation of clusters of atoms at surfaces is that atoms desorb from the surface separately and that cluster formation takes place outside the surface. This is logical if the bonding to the surface is stronger than the bonds within the cluster, and it is in such a case unlikely that a cluster can survive thermal desorption, since this process involves violent energy-transfer collisions from the atoms in the surface. However, in the case of RM clusters this common principle is not applicable.

    Quote

    [...] The reason for this process is that the bond energy for the electronically excited atoms in the cluster is larger than that to the surface, and the incorporation of such an excited atom in a cluster makes it possible for the atom to leave the surface with lower thermal desorption energy and thus to desorb much faster. The bond of the Rydberg atom to the surface is then cleaved and transferred into the RM clusters.


    Below is a modification of fig.3, with added captions for each subfigure:


  • My understanding is that the H atoms adsorbed on the surface directly attach/incorporate themselves to the K RM clusters just outside the surface, forming mixed K–H RM clusters.

    The overall story is quite complex. You have chemical H-H bonds of about 4.5 eV you have the spin bonds of about 11eV and the Nuclear molecule bond H*-H* of about 495eV. All can coexist and dynamically fluctuate. In chemistry one speaks of congruent/conform or hybrid states if the picture can have two or more sides. What we e.g. don't know is: Does the forming out of the spin bond crack the chemical bond? Or do the two bonds coexist? What happens if 4H or even more H engage in spin bonds? The basic model just shows the H-H H*-H* bond but hybrid states need a much more detailed (QM like) model.

  • Wyttenbach, I don't know where this 11 eV spin bond energy comes from; please provide references. What is the definition of 'spin bond' as used here, anyway? Please don't throw specific jargon from your papers without explaining it first.


    Badiei and Holmlid have measured a bond energy of 9.4 eV per H atom in Rydberg matter at the lowest energy state:

    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.physleta.2004.05.027

    https://doi.org/10.1088/0953-8984/16/39/034


    Rydberg matter can be also formed from molecular hydrogen, but the ultra-dense form can only obtained from that of H atoms: https://www.sciencedirect.com/…1008144?via%3Dihub#sec2.3

    Quote

    Types of surfaces for H(0) formation

    If the covalent H–H bond is not broken on the catalyst surface, H(l) RM cannot be formed, but H2(l) RM is still possible and can be detected in some experiments [75]. This form of RM is, however, not the ultra-dense hydrogen H(0) but H(l). Thus, the dissociative adsorption step is crucial for the process of H(0) formation.

  • Wyttenbach, I don't know where this 11 eV spin bond energy comes from; please provide references.

    It's the extra rotation the electron does on the combined flux orbit (1FC * electron mass). Look at 4-He where you can directly see it.

    In H*-H* the potential is roughly 2/3 of the classic e-p potential.

    The problem with Holmlid data is the unknown cluster contribution. Rydberg matter is a correlated state of matter. Talking of a single electron "ionization" is the wrong term. I would say minimal cluster excitation.

    The only data we can trust is the R.Mills measurement.

  • can

    Those are important details, although partly based on assumptions by Holmlid and co-authors, but at least they are assumptions of the best experts we currently have. Much more research will be required to understand the details of these steps. The importance of K is clear, although I am curious how the formation of UDH/UDD without alkali metals as catalyst would occur, if possible at all. As you mentioned, there will always be some degree of contaminants that will make this kind of research hard.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    I think this is a matter of unclear wording, i.e. whether they mean that H RM formation is "not possible anywhere" without alkali metals, or if it's just "not possible in practice" with catalysts similar to the iron oxide-based ones used—since, by the way, they also have specific surface areas in the order of ~5 m2/g or less and therefore generally provide a low hydrogen density on their surface.


    Judging from what is being described in the paper, the easily formed RM of alkali metals for all intents and purposes scavenges hydrogen atoms from the surface of the catalysts, apparently bypassing the need for having a high density of H atoms on the surface that can cluster together before forming covalent bonds (H2).


    It's probably best to ask Leif Holmlid or one of the other authors for clarification here.

  • Continuing the search for (un-aware) UDH/UDD presence in other LENR projects, there is an interesting detail in the latest update by Francesco Celani regarding his research on processed Constantan wires in a Hydrogen and/or Deuterium environment.

    I might have missed following details earlier but in his latest publication the use of a mixed Fe, K, Sz, Mn oxides layer has become visible:

    Sz might be a typo, I am not aware of any chemical element Sz.


    The Constantan wire itself contains Copper, Nickel and Manganese (55/44/1 ratio).

    Thus, also here at least a combination of Hydrogen/Deuterium and Potassium is present.


    An interesting other detail is the use of specific knots in the applied wire.

    There might be an advantageous effect of a magnetic field to the central wires in this knot that is not present without such a knot parallel to the wire (and thus also through the centre of the wire).



    Celani is aware of Holmlid's research.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    Strontium (Sr) from the nitrate is applied:

    https://www.researchgate.net/p…ower_at_High_Temperatures


    Quote

    The knot preparation starts with a wire of a Constantan variant (Cu55 Ni45) free of manganese. The wire has a PTFE coating (the yellow material shown in Fig. 3). The diameter of Constantan wire is listed in the supplier’s specification sas 193 µm We measured it as 197±3µm. The external diameter including PTFE is 730 (±5) µm (Fig. 3, top).Decomposition of PTFE sheath is carried out at 550◦C in air flow and at 0.15 bar for 10 ks. (Caution: a “water vacuum pump” was used to vent traces of hydrofluoric acid from the decomposition of PTFE). The wires were then dipped in 8% HNO3 for 5 min and rinsed in distilled water. (Fig. 3 wire in the middle.) Several cycles (5–10) were repeated of deposition of diluted solution of nitrates of Fe, Sr, K, Mn and high temperature decomposition (500–800◦C) to oxides. A typical procedure starts with a ∼200 cm wire. After preparing the knots (14 knots of eight loops each) the resulting length is ∼130 cm.


    The magnetic field could possibly be useful for forming Rydberg matter, since the excited atoms will align parallel to the magnetic field and will have a longer lifetime under it. However it was reported by Holmlid to be counterproductive for UDH formation. The effect on RM has not been tested by him/his group.

  • can

    Thanks for finding Sr was meant i.s.o. Sz. Also an element that allow for a low work function as expected.

    The magnetic field could possibly be useful for forming Rydberg matter, since the excited atoms will align parallel to the magnetic field and will have a longer lifetime under it. However it was reported by Holmlid to be counterproductive for UDH formation. The effect on RM has not been tested by him/his group.

    That is probably why Celani is applying a pulsed activation.
    As discussed and suggested earlier pulsed magnetic field might be required to maintain UDH/UDD for at least a short period (to activate it).

  • can

    That actually makes more sense indeed.

    The excess heat would be mainly caused by condensation of H or D RM.

    I wouldn't exclude annihilation as well (in addition). Celani should do some efforts to check for muons.


    Regarding the superconductivity: Celani measures a clear decrease in resistivity of the applied wires when activated, which could be caused by superconductive clusters.