THHuxleynew Verified User
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Posts by THHuxleynew

    For that matter, how would the new electrochemical affect cause a problem with isoperibolic calorimetry measured in the electrolyte when we know the electrolyte temperature is uniform? A new electrochemical effect cannot change the heat capacity of water, or the Stefan-Boltzmann coefficient, or the other parameters that govern heat losses from a glass cell. The glass itself is not changed, except by very small amounts of lithium salts in the glass that cannot be removed, and these same amounts are left by control experiments with Pt and no heat.

    Unless you have perfect isothermal surfaces you get differences from heat distribution

    You have potential contamination of sensors

    Differences H vs D can alter amount of foaming, which can alter many things.

    You know all calorimetry has errors, and that sometimes unusual experiments find these. All epends on the magnitude of the results and the quality of the checking.


    Would you say that the experiments which have intrinsically better calorimetry tend to show lower excess heat than those with less accurate calorimetry? Perhaps we could plot of graph of this.


    That should not be the case!


    Anyway these general comment, from you or me, do not help. it is necessary to look at specific details where we agree, or (as in the past) I claim something that might affect accuracy has not been bounded and you say it is known to not matter because good electrochemists all know that. Or something similar.

    You cannot just wave your hands and say that a new electrochemical effect never seen can cause these errors. You have to specify how and why it could cause them, and how it manages to continue causing them long after electrolysis stops.

    We would need to look in detail at a specific experiment to see?


    We have done F&P. How about McKubre - better quality so more liked by me?


    Which experiment, specifically, would you pick is best proof? (Counting a run of experiments using identical methodology as a single experiment - with one-off many sigma outliers excluded).


    THH

    This has been done since heavy water was discovered. The qualities of heavy water are known in tremendous detail and described in the textbooks.

    You need to know where heat is distributed in a complex system where (for example) it is not clear where recombination occurs. The properties of D not not help you. The differences between H and D are complex and not known in this context - even when their gross physical properties are known.

    Please explain this in more detail. How can a new electrochemical effect reach outside the cell and change the performance of a flow calorimeter or a Seebeck calorimeter? Be specific.

    I agree. A good flow or Seebeck calorimeter has pretty low errors. For Seebeck, you need to be sure that the inner surface is isothermal, otherwise differences in thermoelectric converter efficiency or nonlinearites in same cause errors. You can trade accuracy for time constant by having a better isothermal inner surface. you also need to make sure the outer is isothermal but this job is easier with a water bath.


    Flow calorimeter - all you need is very low heat losses or good enough inner isothermal surfaces so that heat loss cannot depend on where inside the calorimeter the heat comes from, (You get external temperature dependence as well, with heat losses, but that is more easily checked and errors bounded).


    So in both cases, it "reaches out" by changing heat distribution. Or, of course by H vs D leaking different amounts, and the leaked H or D altering the electrical properties of sensors, or the thermal conductivity of some material where that matters, etc. Good design would prevent that happening - but you did ask "how can it happen?". It is not easy to check whether such errors are happening, you so want to design them out very securely.

    Great. So someone could write this up as a reference "makes excess heat" experiment - based on one of other of these. Everyone could check what was needed to bound errors below the expected excess heat. It could answer people who wanted a replicable certain result? As long as the excess heat is clearly above chemical, after subtracting experiment error bounds.


    It would also be possible to correlate the excess heat with the expected (from conventional D+D fusion) high energy products. Not sure if need to consider neutron stripping of Pd or Ag - neutron capture seems implausible it would be strongly endothermic.


    I guess these experiments all checked there was not catalytic oxidation of the D - which would be exothermic?

    There can be no undiscovered systematic errors in calorimetric techniques that have been used in science and technology for 180 years, thousands of times a day. This is simply impossible.

    Yes, there can if those errors relate to systems with new electrochemical effects never before seen.


    Anyway - I think rather than abstractly arguing this it would be better to look at a specific set of experiments (McKubre if you like) and see which errors are considered and which ones are not considered, or assumed insignificant.


    THH

    All excess heat is measured directly, by calorimetry.

    Jed - you do understand that calibration of a calorimeter means that the measurement is no longer direct? And to my knowledge nearly all of those positives were from positives after calibration?


    This introduces potential calibration errors which are then multiplied by power in.


    Perhaps when I have time I should go back to the McKubre experiments and point out again what are the assumptions he makes (I remember this from long ago). And how much variation is needed to deliver given amounts of excess heat.


    My contention is that for 98% of his runs it is enough. He then had one (or 2?) anomalous much higher excess heat runs. It is fair to say that is most likely due to some not understood error.


    I have to say though I am not sure about this without going through his experiments gain in great detail.

    THH


    PS - I have been looking at an excellent early McKubre paper, for its insights into Pd/D electrochemistry:


    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237246718_CALORIMETRY_AND_ELECTROCHEMISTRY_IN_THE_DPd_SYSTEM


    It seems very clear to me that for high electrochemical loading, the cathode should be kept cool. Or, equivalently, if the electrode heats up, there will be fugacity of D (or H).


    Also interesting is that the electrode resistance varies with D (H) loading - it goes up to double its unloaded resistance. Although I'd expect the unloaded resistance to be low and so electrode joule heating to be low at say 0.5A one can never be certain of these things without data.


    What surprises me is the F&P Simplicity cell having high excess heat at what must have been a low electrode loading (because the electrodes were very hot...). Perhaps some more evidence to back up ascoli's argument that in fact this was incorrect.


    Anyway, this early paper mentions the possibility of calibration errors but nowhere does he provide error estimates. I will look forward when I have time to reading the later(?) papers that do, to see how they are made.

    No LENR result is completely controlled. However the control parameters from bulk Pd-D are well known and expressed in McKubre's equation. This is a little tricky but . . .

    That is my point. It is logically impossible to include the differences between Pd-H and Pd-D or whatever control you like without instrumenting and measuring temperatures and the things all over the two. McKubre - the one I know best - and I believe one of the better experiments - had 3 TCs at different points in the liquid. That is not enough. In fact if you are admitting very unexpected behaviour in a Pd-D or Pd-H cathode you cannot rule out large changes. How can this be "known"? Point me to where it has been ruled out.


    Equations are fine but they cannot model a system with 10 free parameters where you do not know what 6 of them are.


    You need in that case to make assumptions about what is plausible.

    In my answer to him I wasn’t trying to give him homework, he clearly has done It, But it surprised me a bit that he asked me about information on repeatable experiments.

    Curbina - so can you specify one concrete replicable certain experiment?


    If you let people guess then you will just say it is not repeatable maybe.


    THH

    "We" don't know this. You know it. Do not ascribe your views to everyone. Just say, "in my opinion we know now . . ." Saying "we know" is irritating and deceptive. Someone new to the forum might think this is the consensus of opinion, when in fact you and Ascoli are the ones who think this.

    Ok - it is this:


    ascoli and I claimed that the video showed this: and challenged anyone to show the video did not by posting stills and timestamps - sepaarted by 600s Anyone not able to settle the matter could then compare ascoli's stills + timestamps with the others to see whether in fact the liquid level changed by 50%.


    I was quite surprised, and remain surprised, that no-one took up that relatively easy (if you are right) challenge. It is what F&P said they did to determine the 10 minutes.


    I thus - given it was an easy challenge - reckon no-one here could rebut ascoli's interpretation of the video evidence. Certainly it seemed worth it to me


    I agree no-one here has explicitly supported ascoli's interpretation. But equally no-one has refuted it when to do so would be just "hey - look - here is the video - here are the two frames separated by 10 minutes at the end which show a 50% liquid boil-off if you look at the liquid line".


    If ascoli is wrong, or it is debatable - that would be the obvious thing to do. It might not shut him up - but it would shut me up unless at those timestamps the thing claimed as liquid looked white and bubbly - obvious that would not be as required.


    So unlike most arguments here this is a very concrete one. Ascoli has provided concrete evidence, I am not certain he is right, but anyone here could look at the video and provide a concrete rebuttal.


    That is really why I have been difficult to shut up because I believe in answering direct challenges of this sort. And I like to think this site is about finding truth. Usually the challenges are words, the answers are more words, and it is unsatisfactory.


    In this case the challenge is to find (50 + x)% of unfoamy liquid 600s from the end of the experiment (or 600s from a chosen by you de facto endpoint where there only x% of unfoamy liquid).


    Without this F&P's calculation is clearly wrong: you could perhaps argue that the bubbles could only be a small %age of the water total so it did not matter - that the white stuff was nevertheless obviously nearly all liquid because that is what happens in boiling liquids or something? No-one has argued that yet.


    I just want a logical reply to a (simple) logical challenge to show that matters here are carried out in a proper fashion.


    It is that lack of reply + lack of any other answer to an easily closable question that allows me to conclude that people here agree with ascoli and Robert Horst - even though they don't want to say it.


    THH

    You do not agree, but all the researchers I know say that the original P&F bulk Pd-D experiment was replicable and others can do it.

    Actually Jed, you can look back where that was what I suggested the google people replicate. I still think it would be the most fruitful thing.


    We know so much more now: ATER/CCS/loading/NAEs/foam


    It could be done with both more integrity and higher chance of success.


    THH

    see absolutely no reason why there should not be 2 or even more different mechanisms for LENR to occur, possibly more. After all we have reports of LENR type transmutations and energy release in plasmas, in liquids, in solids and in powders. Science likes reductionist theories because it makes events more comprehensible, but just possibly Nature is a lot bigger than we realise. Each new fundamental scientific discovery we make suggests that this is the case.

    Well, the difference is between technology and applied science - where there is an infinite variety of things, and theoretical physics where (maybe against all odds) the fundamental rules are always simple and uniform.


    That might change, but any variation from simple/uniform has to deliver identical results to current simple/uniform over a LOT of experiments.


    That is why you need a technological/applied science explanation for LENR, not a theoretical physics one.


    We have it, just about, for type 2. Nowhere near for type 1.


    science = experiment + theory


    Each constrains the other - you cannot even interpret any experiment without quite a lot of theory.


    It makes a strong argument for type 2 being much more plausible than type 1. As always a replicable certain experiment that can be done by any team funded say as well as the google guys would change things.


    THH

    I attempted to answer the comment from Florian Metzler thrice, and YouTube kept deleting it.


    Here’s the third attempt that I managed to capture before getting deleted.

    You could do this my way and recommend a suitable "replicable and certain" experiment? Then it might not get deleted.

    never

    Ok - well I have set the matter straight.


    It is OK changing your mind when you have new evidence you know? Everything I've said is matter of record here, and people will actually think better of you if you change views when given good reason.


    Anyway - equally - there is no requirement for you to do that. This is a free site.

    You are arrogant beyond belief. You are incapable of commenting on the content of the original post and hopelessly unaware of actual nuclear physics in your precious standard model even. Stay in your little "extremely brilliant" group and ignore the pearls that have been thrown in front of you, am sure you can finish the saying. You are nothing but a nuisance here. Nuff said.

    Sorry - I am not part of any "extremely brilliant" group.


    Read more carefully! (And anyway - would I be here if I were?)

    They did work with some of the old guard before starting in the lab, but not sure if they solicited their input as to what replications they would recommend. As I recall, Google said they had a couple grad students do a deep dive and draw up a list of the most promising.


    Based on that, we thought they were doing 400 experiments covering many of the field's experimental "successes". Instead, they attempted 400X's to do the same Parkhomov, and failed 400x's.

    I find this very difficult to believe - I'd like to hear their side of it.

    According to Hagelstein at ICCF24, all of Google's 400 replication attempts were on the Parkhomov experiment. I think that revelation came in the Q&A of the "Panel Discussion" hosted by Matt Trevithick, which has since been edited out.

    I would dearly like to understand why they did not replicate Pd/D electrolysis? I vaguely remember that somone somewhere said they had a reason for that - I am sure they were asked?


    Did the LENR community recommend they do that? I would have I know (in fact I remember saying that here when asked).


    THH

    Yes, there is. Again, if you would read the literature you would know this.

    No, Jed, I have read the literature enough to know this.


    Results cannot be quantitative because the quantity and efficiency (getting fusion) of NAEs is variable from one sample to another and cannot be predicted in advance. It is because I have read the litrature that I know this.


    The only quantitative result I know of is He / excess heat comparison. That is very difficult to do well, in away skeptics would accept, but possible. You remember Abd wanted to do that.


    THH

    That would only be the case if people reported cases with very low excess heat, within the margin of error, as positives. They do not. The reports describe significant excess heat, well above the margin of error for the calorimeter.

    The problem is that that no controlled LENR results have complete analyses of error. That is because error estimates must include a term for the differences between control and active runs: that is difficult to bound. It is usually assumed negligible - but that assumption may be wrong. Checking whether it is wrong is necessary in each case and given the surprising effects possible in metal-H or metal-D electrolysis we cannot rely on "what electrochemists all know" wisdom.


    For first principle results where data depends only on direct measurement of excess heat I do not think we have so many positives? Perhaps it would be interesting to look at what fraction of excess heat measurements come from direct measurement. The most obvious such positive, historic, which I am now allowed to mention, has accompanying video evidence which appears to contradict the calculation in the paper. Perhaps we could list others?


    In point of fact, any experiment that is even marginally positive may actually be positive. No calorimeter recovers 100% of the heat. That is impossible. When the instrument is working properly, a heat balance with no excess is always slightly negative.

    This is covered by this issue: excess heat results got by comparison with a control run (the usual case) do not have this built-in negative bias.

    As I said, the file drawer effect does not exist for the major studies. They reported all results. There are no systematic errors. If there were, someone would have found them by now. These studies at Los Alamos, SRI and elsewhere underwent very thorough peer-review, lasting months or years in some cases. Reviewers included skeptical people who looked carefully for systematic errors. They found none. You, Morrison and the other skeptics have found no errors.

    The level of peer review of these experiments is lamentable. I, just as you, regret the way that mainstream science will mostly ignore LENR papers. However, now there is maybe a chance to remedy that with the increasing interest. A similar experiment done now claiming new evidence could be peer reviewed properly, with the full process where reviewers go back an ask experimenters to perform additional checks to make results more solid. You need to find peer reviewers from outside teh LENR community: mostly people have now forgotten the old controversy, so most now (the younger ones anyway) have no preconceptions.


    But when you say skeptics have found no systematic errors: Shanahan has found two errors which might apply. Specifically CCS will apply whenever error bounds are not properly calculated in a controlled calorimetry result. That can be determined for every such experiment yes/no. there is no argument. It is trivial, and you would hope it did not apply to many, but Shanahan's have some examples of it applying.


    ATER will apply directly to all electrolysis experiments. The arguments against it being relevant all have sound counterarguments:

    (1) It does not happen. No-one can know this given the unusual effects on metal-H electrochemistry and the fact that it can be mistaken for excess heat.

    (2) It is not relevant in experiments with a recombiner. It is relevant because it alters temperature distribution and unless the effect of such changes on results (which can with correct result be small) is analytically bounded it remains an unknown problem


    So: what is needed is a replicable electrolysis experiment showing excess heat where the various questions:

    • Differences with control
    • ATER exaggerating differences with control
    • CCS - that is just ensuring that the correct error bounds are calculated, taking into account the fact that error between control and active systems deliver enthalpy error multiples by the input power - often much larger than the excess heat power.


    Are all done properly without assumptions skeptics will not agree. Where there is such an assumption we can have an agreed extra process where it can be tested built into the replication protocol.


    You give me one experiment (McKubre ?) showing repeated excess heat above error bounds where that is all done already and I will either agree with you - and we have our "replicable evidence of LENR" experiment to give to people like Florian on the other thread who ask - or point out something you are getting wrong.


    I agree replicating these experiments properly is expensive - but not impossible and worth it if we can be sure the original results are certain as above.


    THH

    JedRothwell , I don’t know how well you know Florian Metzler, he responded to my comment on Sabine’s video, is he aware of the body of knowledge gathered at LENR-CANR.org ?


    I am 100% with Florian here. Anyway this thread is not downplaying gaps:


    • I have helpfully drawn everyone's attention to the one's in Storms hypothesis re type 1 LENR
    • Ascoli has done same re F&P boil-off
    • The real gap - which Florian refers to - is lack of a replicable certain LENR experiment that others could do. We discuss it from time to time and I don't think we have any agreed recommendation? Worth continuing to do this.