Posts by PeterMetz

Quote from Shane D.

Bass believed there was sponge in the black box serpentine pipes, but only because Rossi and Johnson led him to believe that. In Johnson's depo, he admitted never having seen any sponge. How Bass convinced himself that a few sponges in those 4 pipes could absorb 1MW 24/7, without ever being changed out...well, that is why I think he is guilty as sin too. He is like the get-away car driver, who claims he was just giving his buddy a ride to the bank, and thought the mask and gun were for a Halloween party his buddy was going to after making a withdrawal.

Well said. I do feel a little bit sorry for Bass because, like a lot of people, Rossi used him. On the other hand Bass should have figured things out pretty early. Maybe he did but the pay was too good.

Quote from interested observer

No matter how much I try to figure out the rationale for the debate going on here, I just can't quite succeed. The claim is that some magical gizmo in this little space in an office park in Florida was producing 1 MW of power pretty much continuously for an entire year while consuming considerably less power in the process. Better yet, nobody noticed. Whether this actually happened is being argued on the basis of the diameter of pipes, the existence or lack thereof of a window pane, and whether or not there was a giant invisible heat exchanger in the attic. The only so-called evidence that anything like this actually happened consists of the ravings of someone whose endless lies for years on end have been breathtaking in their brazenness. And yet, some 6,000 posts later, the argument goes on. I guess I just don't have the "special" perspective that many here do. From where I sit, the whole thing is too absurd to argue about with a straight face.

It's going to be really interesting if this thing ever goes to trial. Will the lawyers be allowed to use the term 'cold fusion' given the history and bias the public has towards the subject and given the premature announcement in the national media in 1989? Maybe they will use the term LENR (which in layman's terms will be defined as cold fusion) or not talk about the actual reaction at all (which I think would be a huge win for Rossi). For me Rossi's E-Cat did not pass the 'wife test' even before this fiasco so I just don't see how 100% of the jurors will find the preponderance of evidence in Rossi's favor.

In a civil trial it's supposed to be the "preponderance of evidence" that determines the outcome. That means 51% takes it. But how do you account for lack of evidence (no pictures etc) or even spoliation? For me it doesn't look very good for Rossi and after you factor in this it's even worse.

Quote from Bob

I have not seen anyone reference the function of this box. However, there are over 200 documents and I could have missed something.

I can state this however. Rossi clearly stated in his deposition and hired Prof. Wong to "validate", that the 1MW of heat was dissipated in the second floor room by the previously unknown heat exchanger and blowing the heat (thus cooling the water) out the window. This deposition was performed under oath.

So if Rossi stated under oath that there was no other heat dissipation, (such as pipes through the roof, etc. ), I cannot imagine why he would not have included in his testimony, of any refrigerated cooler. (Note, that even if this the case, the heat would still have been vented into the warehouse space from the tan box. Heat MUST go somewhere, it does not simply vanish.) So I would therefore doubt that the box would be of anything related to heat dissipation or Rossi would have included it.

I personally have not read anything describing it, but again, could have missed it.

That said.... who knows! Rossi seems to be a strange person. Perhaps it is some secret device that he wants to keep under wraps and is afraid someone will steal the IP for it?

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Thanks Bob for the reply. I have not seen any reference to it either but could have easily have missed it.

Clearly Rossi is trying to deal with the issue that if he indeed generated 1MW/h of heat 24/7 and there is no customer application (which he now admits) then where did the heat go. He ruse on top of his previous customer ruse was the second story heat exchanger.

But as most people here believe, Rossi did not generate 1MW/h heat. He generated much less but it appears that it was piped into the "customer black box" which was insulated (maybe just the door?). That heat had to go somewhere I would think if it went from 103°C back down to 68°C or so. It's not that much heat if there is only hot water and little or no steam. I don't think the temperature measurements have ever been questioned.

The beige box looks disassembled/deattached to me in that there is nothing going in or out to it. I've tried to identify it by searching for devices that Rossi might be using to cool/heat his hot water/wet steam. Somewhere I'm sure there is a picture identifying that beige box (it's pretty distinctive) but so far I haven't found it. Identifying it might further clarify what was actually happening in the warehouse.

I've been wondering about that beige box. Has there been anything ventured about it? Bob Greenyer has pointed out something interesting here: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/…3677cad3fd5d69a88cb8a.png

I'm thinking it might be some kind of chiller or a/c but I cannot find any pictures on the Internet that looks like this. I've been wondering what would Rossi need next to the customer black box. If there is no second floor heat exchanger and hot water/wet steam is being piped into the insulated customer box, Rossi would have to have a way to cool that water (unless he heated it further again and recirculated it). Just thinking out loud and not making any claims.

Quote from joshg

Yes, I agree that in that picture we can clearly see glass panes reflecting. And I agree with you that orange and white road construction signage (plus the dark water stains and state of the grass) all indicate it is from the same period as the April 2015 google pics. The only problem is that I cannot find that specific picture in google streetview. I agree with Jed that the "currently shown" means that the picture we are seeing comes from April 2015. One other difference is that the signs in the picture supplied by Paradigmnoia are laid out on the grass, whereas in the google streetview pictures they are standing upright on the street. I would love to get a direct link to that picture on google streetview. But yeah, if confirmed it's very damning.

https://www.google.com/maps/@2…0000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Not the exact view from Paradigmnoia but a good view of the middle window with reflections.

Quote from JedRothwell

It has the date in the picture. Look in the little window on the top left. It says, "Currently shown: Apr 2015." You can move the slider to see other dates.

OK, it looks to me to be from 2015. I now think Paradigmnoia has the correct date. The screen picture matches the timeline picture and there are construction pylons on the grass indicating it's from 2015.

I've been trying to find this view and cannot. I know (sometimes?) there is a view coming from the other direction which would have occurred at a different time but I cannot get myself over to the other lane. I'll keep trying to confirm but so far I cannot find this view. This view would definitely throw out any conjecture of screens etc.

Edit: OK I found it: https://www.google.com/maps/@2…0000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Quote from Eric Walker

What is seen in E48's photos could also be windows with glass panes and black paper loosely attached behind them and are not necessarily screens. Could they have been screens? Perhaps. But recall that the window that is the important one is the one that was in the middle, where the ingress and egress occurred, according to one of the depositions. Here we see a good view of the middle window in April 2015 (courtesy Paradigmnoia):

That is clearly a reflection of clouds that we're seeing, pace imaginative suggestions that it might be steam instead. Could there have been an error in the deposition, and really it was the window over the door where the steam vent was created? I suppose. But we're still so far away from a realistic scenario in which 1 MW of heat is being vented out that the conversation feels unmoored at this point.

I'm not sure if this picture is from 2015. It looks a lot like the 2016 picture. When you select a date from the time line you have to click on the timeline picture to get it to display. Maybe Paradigmnoia can confirm his picture?

Edit: OK, it now looks to me to be from 2015. I now think Paradigmnoia has the correct date. The screen picture matches the timeline picture and there are construction pylons on the grass indicating it's from 2015.

Edit 2: OK I found it: https://www.google.com/maps/@2…0000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Regarding screens in the windows: If you look at the current Street View July 2016, there are clearly glass panes in the middle window and the window above the entrance. Why would Rossi be repairing them in February 2017?

Also the middle window in April 2015 Street View do not show much reflection but neither do the windows below or either. It's a stretch to blow up a fairly low resolution pictures and from the artifacts claim there is no window or a screen. Other windows along that street look similar. There is one window that is jet black from one angle and dull grey in another. I don't see any discernible differences among all these windows.

Also Rossi testified that they removed the entire window. Clearly the frame is still in place in every picture.

I did see E48's original posting about this and he claims that the two left lites (viewed from the front) are missing. (Now he claims all are removed?) I claim he is confused by those lites being in shadow, and I do see some reflection, never mind that it contradicts Wong's disclosure (based on what Rossi's told him) that the bottom lites were removed for the fans.

I think E48 is throwing stuff out to see what sticks. I don't understand most of what he says so I cannot comment on it.

Quote from Eric Walker

Doc. 248, defendants' reply on opposition to motion exclude Dr. Wong, now on the docket together with its exhibits:

Very interesting and timely! Having just pointed out that there is no evidence for the second floor heat exchanger, IH is now arguing that any expert opinion must be based on “based on sufficient facts or data” and so Wong's opinion must be thrown out. Makes sense to me. Will have to see how the Judge handles this.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I include one important caveat to my theory. We still have not run to ground the existence or lack thereof of the heat exchanger. We see four pipes coming out of the JMP black box and running along the ceiling. We don't know what those are or where they go. If the heat exchanger never existed, all bets are off.

Rossi testified (and told Wong upon which he based his analysis) that the heat exchanger was on the 2nd floor mezzanine, air cooled and powered by 2 25K CFM fans inserted into the bottom lites of the middle window. The only physical evidence Rossi provides is the 20 minutes Wong was there during his site visit 1 year after the test where he just happened to witness the repair of the window. There is no other physical evidence for the heat exchanger there, no design records, no financial records, no eyewitnesses. Nothing. There is evidence for lack of a heat exchanger as described by Rossi--numerous pictures of the intact window and analyses that it would not be possible to cool 1MW/h heat with the set up described.

Now Rossi did generate some heat and he probably sent that into an insulated container (customer black box) where it wound through some pipes and returned no doubt cooler. That heat had to go somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if he vented out those pipes and up through the ceiling and cargo doors or some other simple mechanism to expel the heat that he did generate.

Why would Rossi lie about a heat exchanger? Maybe he didn't really generate 1MW/h of heat?

Quote from Jack Cole

With the recent additions to the docket, there is some interesting information. AR's tax returns for one. Strangest thing is the last corrected return filed in 2016 for 2013. Looks like he reclassified a bunch of the income. Someone who knows more about taxes should take a look. I'm not seeing the full $10M.

Those tax returns are for Leonardo Corporation (Florida) which is 100% owned by Florida Energy Trust. (Not sure who the principals are here--I think it's in the depositions somewhere.) There have been quite a few substantive amendments last year and even last month to these tax returns. 247-02 - Exhibit 30, an itemization of IH's payments to Rossi, says that $10M was paid to law office Henry W Johnson. We may need tax returns from Florida Energy Trust and/or even Rossi's personal tax returns to determine whether things are according to tax law. What doesn't look good to me is all the last minute changes during the civil suit for the 2012 and 2013 tax returns. I'm not an accountant (and my wife does our taxes) so I cannot comment too much more than this.

Quote from IH Fanboy

@PeterMetz

Yes, let the hate flow. Call me IH Trollboy. It feels good to insult doesn't it?

Okay, I concede, it shows the purported "image capture date" without any specificity. Why doesn't Google show the actual date with the day? Guess you have to subpoena them if you want that information.

I already pointed out that Google for privacy reasons does not specify the exact date and time. They do this with satellite imagery as well.

And really, it is very difficult to accept the kinds of arguments and examples you are providing as anything but trolling. I will block you if it makes you feel any better. Unfortunately there are too many people who like to get into a pissing contest with you for that to be effective.

Quote from IH Fanboy

@PeterMetz

You are making an assumption that the month/year shown on the timeline is the month/year in which the photo was taken. Can you think of any other association other than this?

@IH Trollboy

If you select the month/year from the timeline you will see the image capture date in the lower right corner to be exactly the same. What a coincidence!

Quote from IH Fanboy

The hard conclusion has been made: the heat exchanger never existed. And the proof? A google street view image with a timeline date of April, 2015. Nearly every IH Fanboy here (except this one) has pinned their hopes on this google street view image.

Now, let me be clear: I do not know whether the heat exchanger ever existed or not. But I refuse to jump to conclusions on the basis of a google street view image. Such images cannot be relied up on in litigation.

Here you can read about people observing that images can be taken long before the update actually happens on the timeline.

One of the most common complaints of Google street view is that it is out of date. So there is no incentive for Google to post an earlier date, and there is every incentive for Google to post the latest date possible, even if pictures were taken months in advance.

It would also be quite a remarkable thing for Google to update the entire database of street view images between April 1 and April 30, 2015. That would mean every street in every city would have to be driven with a google vehicle within a single month--an amazing feat.

I suggest that you all should be a bit more skeptical of your quick and not-well-thought-out conclusions.

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IH Fanboy

Your link is to a discussion is from 2009, over 8 years ago when Street View didn't even show image capture date. They could not possibly be discussing this date. And if you read the discussion, it revolves around how recent is the street view and not how accurate the image capture date is (which didn't exist).

This is not a question of being "out of date" as you say. The question is how accurate is the image capture date. As far as I know Google does not want you to know the exact date and time for privacy reasons but the month/year associated with the image is accurate. I'm really surprised (in a manner of speaking) that this has fouled you up given your "neutral" position on all of this. The street view date of April 2015 is accurate to the month, which is over a month into the test which started in February. There is no question that there was no heat exchanger venting out that window during the test as Rossi testifies and as Wong, based entirely on what Rossi told him, made his calculations.

Also of interest is the most recent street view taken in July 2016. Clearly there is glass in the the window at this time so it begs the question, what were those window guys doing during the 20 minutes Wong happened to be there in Feb 2017 (I believe)?

How big of a fan is a 25,000 cubic meter/hour (14,714 cubic feet/min) fan? I think I found one that is 1 square yard that moves 15,000 cfm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/36-034…osed-4-Blad-/360876429600

Does it matter if the fan is pushing air into the box or pulling the air out of the box? Wong testified that the fans were in the external wall in the lower two panes. The above fan might work there. Rossi was less specific only saying that the fans were outside the wooden box but moving air inside the box. There was a small door into the upstairs area also.

Could those bottom lites in the window be 3' x 3'? Wong's statement of 3.8 square meters for the window supports that. There is a hand in the window and based on that I get may 2' across the lite but this is clearly a guestimate.

Of course there were no fans or openings in the window--Google Streetview shows this.

Quote from LENR Calender

I think the pipe diameter was an error or a miscommunication. The problem lies when you think you have this big list of gotchas but don't bother trying to figure out whether they are likely or not.

Rossi using a single DN40 pipe was unlikely whether he is a fraud or not.

If I recall correctly, Murray testified in a deposition that the piping inside the amongst the reactors was DN40. He testified that he couldn't tell what the main steam pipe to the customer was because it was covered with insulation but he imagined it was DN80.

In Exhibit 5, the letter to Penon, Murray said piping was DN40 which as many people figured out couldn't be correct for the main steam pipe. So his statement was only partially correct (or partially wrong depending on what kind of person you are).

Of course we don't know what the main piping ever was because it was removed and re-purposed by Rossi but I don't think Murray ever explicitly and intentionally called out that pipe as DN40.

Sorry no references for this but I don't have the time to dig them up. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Quote from joshg

This is by far the most devastating and dispositive evidence against Rossi that I've seen so far. I don't see how he can weasel out of this. Assuming its admissible in court, he's toast. I am surprised that IH did not include this as evidence in its spoliation motion.

joshg

Yes, it's something that if the case went to trial would, I believe, have far more sway than any technical analysis about the ERV report, which would cause most juror's eyes to cloud over. The lack of vent fans completely invalidates Wong's analysis and would have to be thrown out as well. And on top of this we now have Rossi lying about his lies! It's pretty damming.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Peter Metz ,

There were many visitors to the Doral warehouse. Any of them arriving at the front door could have noticed if there were fans/venting/missing glass, on their way in. Maybe there are some photos of the front taken by visitors.

I wonder if any glass was missing when that guy that posted a bunch of photos of the building on ECW visited the site. He was there shortly after the lawsuit was filed. (I'll have to scrounge for a date on that).

No I looked it up. He had a picture of the front door but mostly of the back. There was also a picture of Rossi's car in the front (in the comments) but it was to small and undated. That's when I went to Google Street View. But you are right, there are probably other pictures but it's pretty clear from Google that there are no fans in those windows.

Here is the ECW link: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016…t-address/comment-page-1/

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Peter Metz ,

LOL and OMG!

The window panes were being replaced, according to Wong, Feb 10, 2017. Almost a year after the Plant was shut down.

From 194-06, transcript pg 105 (Wong as witness, in bold):

6 A. Yes, but there was definitely no panes

7 when I was there.

8 Q. Okay. And this one -- and this one is

9 actually --

10 A. But it was being worked on, because there

11 were two workmen waiting for me to take the photo.

12 I had to say, "Get out of the way." I don't know

13 what they were working on.

14 Q. You have -- you have no idea -- you don't

15 have any firsthand basis to know whether there

16 were -- whether there was glass in those windows

17 prior to February 10th of 2017, correct?

18 A. Before and after those 20 minutes I was in

19 that room, I don't know what was happening.

20 Q. And those 20 minutes were February 10th of

21 2017, correct? I need a verbal response.

22 A. Yes.

..................................................................................

As for the fans.... from 194-06, transcript page 102....

10 Q. Looking at your report, question one is

11 did you see those two fans?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ask to see the two fans?

14 A. No. I did ask about the design of the

15 heat exchanger and how the pipes were laid out.

16 Q. And you asked that of Andrea Rossi?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And he provided you the explanation?

19 A. Verbally, yes.

20 Q. Okay. I understand.

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I didn't realize the date of Wong's pictures! Rossi says he's converting that upstairs space to an office. What a coincidence that the 20 minutes Wong happened to be there they were fixing those windows!

There is so many holes here that I don't know where to start. But if we are right about the window then Rossi never vented the heat out that window using fans. And he probably set Wong up to make it look like it was. Is is criminal to mislead your expert witness by staging a scene or to lie during the deposition?

I'm pretty sure that IH's lawyers know about this deception based on the questioning they did with Rossi (numerous times) about the window and Wong. There is no wiggle room here. I hope they already have or see the April 2015 Street View of that window. That should pretty much be the nail in the coffin on the 1MW heat.