The Playground

  • The main question remains, had IH the full sum of money in order to meet the obligations of the license agreement at any time available?. The answer is no!

    Speculation as to how they could have raised money is superfluous, because they have signed a contract with the knowledge that they can possibly not raise the sum and so they could not be interested seeing Rossi successfully running a long term test - because they did not have that $89 million at no time!


    Rends


    They had commitments from Woodford (looking at documents it is clear) to supply $200M+ should they be able to reproduce working reactors. Basically, had Rossi done IP transfer (and had working reactors), they were in a position to exploit this. That included paying off Rossi. See the Cassarino notes. It is pretty obvious they would be able to do this. IP transfer comes strictly before the GPT - so without IP transfer they are not obligated to pay) even if the GPT is real and OK).


    The arguments from you and SSC here are particularly bankrupt, and notably they contradict each other. SSC and Ele seem to think IH was at fault for having too much money. You claim they are at fault for having too little.


    When it is on record that they had access to lots more money but the conditions to get this never happened.

  • Eric: Now let us recall the article that clarified that only 20 or so million from Woodford had been disbursed to IH.

    Please cite the aricle yourself. You have not.


    In this post, I convert the values found in a Citywire article from pounds into dollars. The Citywire article mentions two Woodford stakes, of approx. 20 and 25 million dollars, one or both of which apply to IH (it's not clear from the wording of the article exactly what goes to IH). In this post Dewey Weaver contests 250 million number. In this post joshg clarifies that the Chinese number is not a direct investment in IH.


    You may disagree with one or another interpretation, but at minimum the 250 million number is at best doubtful, and more likely far wide of the mark.

  • Anyway, is it really important to know if investors have given to IH $ 50 million or $ 250 million? The question remains the same: before collecting that money, IH should have been certain of the product they were buying. So either they were unwise, or the reactor worked fine. This is a fact.


    Details matter when you're having a conversation with people, seeking to come to mutual understanding. Whether a "Six-Cylinder" E-Cat or a 1MW plant was used. Whether a test started within the first 30 days of the arrival of the equipment. Whether there was a signature from Ampenergo. Whether something was referred to in correspondence as a "Guaranteed Performance Test." Whether there was a real, bona fide customer. Whether IH obtained 50 million or 250 million or some other amount in funding.

  • This is much ado about nothing. I'm not going to dig it up again, but Woodford and the Chinese were willing to invest $150 mil, and $200 mil more (respectively) had Rossi proven his tech. Plus, IH had 2 big (unnamed) companies ready to roll. It is ridiculous to argue that IH went into the partnership with the sinister intent to steal the (working) IP, all because they did not have the financial backing to purchase it outright.


    Eric, is there some way we can hook up some electrodes to Ele and SSC's keyboard, so we can zap them if they keep on about this money thing? :)

  • Right. And could that possibly be because, as is obvious from Rossi's e-mail asking for it, it is not the GPT? Darden was perhaps alert to the possibility that Rossi might try to twist things?

    No, it is not in this way. The mail was sent by a member of the APCO to Rossi in order to ask him not to reveal to anyone the place where the test would take place, nor the start date. McLaughlin also suggests Rossi to call the "long term test and continued R & D" test. Re-read the document.

  • No, this is your speculation, and your opinion. Not a fact. Whether something is unwise or not is a matter of opinion.


    Perhaps the people who gave them the $50 million were unwise. I do not know the details of the agreement. If it were me giving them the money, it would be contingent on the test working, and if the test failed, they would have to give it back. I have no idea whether such conditions are attached.

    It is not a matter of opinion. When a person has the task of collecting money for a project, the minimum he can do to behave correctly is to make sure that that project works, and he must do it before collecting the money. If he collects money anyway, it means that he is incautious, or he is certain that the project works (and for sure he must have tested it successfully). These are obvious concepts, not points of view. And you too realize it, otherwise you would not suppose that the money delivery could be contingent on the test work.

  • Also, there are definite hints of the classic criminal's "logic" in SSC and ele's repeated opinions/insinuations of other's motives: that being "...I wouldn't have robbed that bank, if they hadn't LET me rob it...". Or: "....if anyone is "unwise" (or risk-taking, uninformed, etc) enough to give Rossi money, they deserve to have it stolen....".

    Criminal's logic? Are you drunk? I never said that IH deserves to be cheated. I believe that they have not been, but I also believe that they did not do their job in the right way. Do not misinterpret my words on purpose.

  • The arguments from you and SSC here are particularly bankrupt, and notably they contradict each other. SSC and Ele seem to think IH was at fault for having too much money. You claim they are at fault for having too little.

    IH can be as rich as they want, I do not care. But when you use the money of others you have to be aware. And I think they were aware......I think they had positive results but they negated them after Rossi's complaint.

  • SSC

    I am sure that IH ensured neither Woodford nor any Chinese investors that the e-cat performs as claimed by Rossi and Penon ("COP" of 80) - which would made this technology worth billions of $.


    Woodford would have been incredible stupid if they would have assumed that IH sells them a major share of a goldmine for just a couple of ten million dollars.


    When you only have to pay a couple of millions for a investment which might become worth billions (or trillions), then you must certainly be aware that this investment is a high risky deal, and not a safe bet. - Same as when you buy a lottery ticket.

  • If he collects money anyway, it means that he is incautious, or he is certain that the project works (and for sure he must have tested it successfully). These are obvious concepts, not points of view.


    A startup team will make a pitch to venture capitalists that they have a lot of hope that what they're doing will work, but they're not certain it will. And the VCs will provide money realizing that the investment is a risky one. Similarly it is easy to imagine that Darden hedged his pitch to Woodford with all kinds of cautions that the whole thing with Rossi was very risky and might not pan out. This discussion feels a little futile to me.

  • The main question remains, had IH the full sum of money in order to meet the obligations of the license agreement at any time available?. The answer is no!

    Speculation as to how they could have raised money is superfluous, because they have signed a contract with the knowledge that they can possibly not raise the sum and so they could not be interested seeing Rossi successfully running a long term test - because they did not have that $89 million at no time!

    Rends


    I really cannot accept this. You go from:

    "IH did not have the money" TRUE

    to

    "IH knew they could not possibly raise the money" FALSE.


    As I stated above, and is pretty obvious:

    If the ecats work and are replicable (IP transfer) IH had lined up large amts of money to be available

    If the ecats don't work (no IP transfer or no IP to transfer) IH would ask for no money, and get none, beyond the Woodford initial tranche.

  • It is about spamming, please take it in consideration:

    Reading here is suffering an enormous amont of noise which makes it different to find the signal. One of the reasons is Jed Rothwell's permanent verbose posting and behavior. He has an opinion about everything, no matter of knowledge. I do know that many people here give him likes what makes my request something provocative, but:


    I think it might be helpful to automaticly move Jed's post to a special "mostly rants" thread where they can only be voted back to the discussion if there is any constructive content.


    What do the mods think about?


    Moved from the me356 thread. Eric

  • It is about spamming, please take it in consideration:


    I think it might be helpful to automaticly move Jed's post to a special "mostly rants" thread where they can only be voted back to the discuss:?:ion if there is any constructive content. What do the mods think about?

    I'm not a mod, but how about automatically moving jimimo's inane, vacuous, contentless, non-contributory comments to the playground?


    Oh wait...


    Moved from the me356 thread. Eric


  • This is your problem, you are not reading properly, because I do not draw any conclusions at all (other than you).

    I simply point out, with the assistance of the court documents, that at the time of the signing of the license agreement and also later in the for the trail relevant period, IH did not have the necessary financial resources to comply with that treaty. 'Whether' and how they, 'possibly', 'perhaps', 'might have', 'under certain circumstances', etc. could have come to money is completely irrelevant. At that time, they did not have the financial resources at any time.

  • Rends . It is bad form, even in Rossi-land, to contradict yourself immediately.


    From Post #2521 (which I quoted above)

    they have signed a contract with the knowledge that they can possibly not raise the sum and so they could not be interested seeing Rossi successfully running a long term test


    From Rends Post #2524

    This is your problem, you are not reading properly, because I do not draw any conclusions at all (other than you).

    I simply point out, with the assistance of the court documents, that at the time of the signing of the license agreement and also later in the for the trail relevant period, IH did not have the necessary financial resources to comply with that treaty. 'Whether' and how they, 'possibly', 'perhaps', 'might have', 'under certain circumstances', etc. could have come to money is completely irrelevant. At that time, they did not have the financial resources at any time.


    I was reading perfectly well, it seems you do not read your own posts?


    #2524 is true but expected and not interesting, #2521 is false and draws false conclusions about IH motives.

  • they have signed a contract with the knowledge that they can possibly not raise the sum and so they could not be interested seeing Rossi successfully running a long term test


    "That they can possibly not raise the sum" True or False? ... it is obvious, read the papers, there is no hint that there is any guaranteed contract, commitment what s ever for this sum.

    "so they could not be interested seeing Rossi successfully running a long term test" True or False? ... the court papers say, that IH, Darden et.al do not accept this long term test for to meet the requirements of the license agreement and claim overhead that the test was not successful and denounce it as fraud.

  • It is clear or should be clear now that this entire test was a fraud, so what is the problem then with IH denouncing it as fraud?

    AFAIK none of the "publicly" available documents of this soap opera Rossi vs. Darden state clearly, if there were or were not financial resources on IH's side. It is not obvious, but simply speculation or personal opinion only. There might be a good chance that IH may have had different goals and played "their game" from the beginning in this contract in order to get access to Rossis E-cat technology (in case it potentially worked this would have been a gold mine), but had to realize later on, that they were caught by Rossis "magnificence" and put over the barrel with his fake 1-year-1MW-heat-sell to his secret customer manufacturing plant.