I was wrong about Rossi, but what I fear most is that I might be partly right

    Quote from Eric Walker

    (The FBI are the ones who came in when Intelligentry was closed down.)


    Leonardo / IH is not very analogous to Intelligentry, which had not a single professor of science (that I'm aware of) confirming their claims. Rossi has had many highly regarded scientists test his technology and report their positive results publicly. This is a contract dispute. While I could always be wrong, I think it is highly unlikely that law enforcement will get involved, whether it be the police or the FBI. This isn't a clear cut case of criminal fraud as Intelligentry obviously was to any breathing and thinking human being.

    IH Fanboy,


    You need not share the profoundly pessimistic outlook I do with respect to Rossi to appreciate the relevance of the FBI. Consider simply that there are likely to have been several activists such as Mary Yugo who will have done all they can to contact authorities and raise the possibility of fraud, such as happened with the fellow (Gary Wright?) who approached the Florida authorities with a request that they look into the possibility that he was operating a nuclear device. I would be surprised if the FBI did not already have a file on Rossi (and perhaps IH as well, if that makes sympathizers feel any better).


    Will the attestation of professors be sufficient to lead the FBI to conclude the matter not worth investigating? Perhaps. But I am sure those same activists will have been able to paint a negative enough set of possibilities to alarm anyone who doesn't have much context on the matter, such as an FBI investigator being approached cold.

    Quote from Mary Yugo

    No. I started reading about Rossi's claims with great interest in early 2011. I contacted Jed with the intent of using my experience with calorimetry and general scientific method to help Rossi prove it worked. I have followed the story carefully ever since, reading evidence for and against. I have also studied the natural history of high tech scams and reviewed several others, including a review (Sniffex) which was used by the FBI to prosecute their successful SEC case against the company. I helped billionaire Dick Smith avoid the waste of a million dollars he was considering investing in Defkalion and we all know how that turned out. When Elforsk became involved, I wrote a detailed email to the CEO of the company, explaining why investing in Rossi was a poor idea without much better testing. He wrote back that he appreciated the input and referred the email to a subordinate for action.


    I highlighted again and again directly to Rossi and also in forums what Rossi could do to obtain credible tests of ecats. And much much more.


    I'd hardly call my activities "armchair quarterbacking". That's FAR from fair.


    I definitely agree with most of your perspectives and analysis, but I think you are not taking into account what I wrote. They made a very risky investment that turned out to be a bad one, and that goes with the territory in investment. Now if we were talking about a collection of scientists making a collective judgement on the good doctor's body of work...of course there would be a different outcome, but we are talking about an investment here. I believe Rossi to be a master of deception, and he got one over on them with their gamble on what many probably told them could be a world changing technology. I just feel it is unfair to say there was deep negligence and incompetence on the part of IH when they were, in my opinion, fooled by a master trickster, and probably by others who believe in Rossi (there are many)...coupled with the fact that this was a high risk investment in the hopes for something world changing.

    Quote from axil

    IH hired the ERV to be an impartial referee in judging the test. The ERV is required to conduct an impartial test by contract. This situation is impactful in your emotional and prejudiced thinking, but that is just the way it is.


    You can continue to parrot the same misinformation and ignore what I am saying, but that will not change anything...

    Quote from stephenrenzz

    If someone fraudulently obtained $11Million going for another $89Million and ran...you can sure bet the police would be involved!!!


    Not necessarily. You've been around for awhile and ought to have an idea of how angel/VC funding works. And last I checked, Rossi hasn't "ran."

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Not necessarily. You've been around for awhile and ought to have an idea of how angel/VC funding works. And last I checked, Rossi hasn't "ran."


    Oh I am not saying he will run or has....probably wont happen, I am just saying if he did run...agencies would be interested.

    Quote from "Renzzzie"

    I meant do you have documentation...you should know by now that "Rossi says" holds about as much water as "Santa Claus says" nowadays.


    That'll be Dewey you are talking about, not Rossi. (spelling error?)

    Quote from "Jed"

    They looked for heat coming out of the vent, and did not see it.


    Wow! You (and IH) must really XXXXXXX stupid ... or ... deliberatly making FUD ... Of course the heat will come thru all of the bad insulated roof , and walls, and doors, and ... (so obviously looking at the vent would be worth nothing)

    Edited 2 times, last by sifferkoll ().

    Quote from JedRothwell

    You know nothing about the equipment or the configuration. You do not know why the I.H. expert insisted he must see the pretend customer site.


    Just for winding up your brains, please ask You the following:


    1 You should test the most valuable invention of the century!
    - Would you choose a location anybody is aware of?
    - Wouldn't it be wiser to layout a false trace??


    2 You want to sell the most valuable invention of the century!
    - Is claim more important than facts?
    - Wouldn't it be a risk to destroy any claim?


    The facts (I checked long ago) are very clear: The so called location for the test was on sale a few months before test started. There is no company at the “so called location”, also within a reasonable range, that could use 1MW...


    Conclusion: Florida was Rossi test-lab. The real test happened somewhere else – nobody likes to talk about this...
    One hint: You should compare all the photos Rossi posted (and illegally took..).
    One more hint: How the hell can you rebuild thee complete reactor over night...


    To MY: A 1 MW boiler is a s small as 2x2x2 Meters. The one my brother owns is even smaller. Its all a matter of how much water You want to store and not a matter of generating the heat!

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    1 You should test the most valuable invention of the century!
    - Would you choose a location anybody is aware of?
    - Wouldn't it be wiser to layout a false trace??


    I am sure the reactor was located where I.H. and Rossi say it was. Several people I know saw it there. Also, not even Rossi would lie to the court so boldly as you claim.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    I am sure the reactor was located where I.H. and Rossi say it was. Several people I know saw it there. Also, not even Rossi would lie to the court so boldly as you claim.


    That's exactly what I said: The reactor the people saw was there. It was the fake test reactor...


    I urge everybody to carefully look at all the Rossi pictures he posted. You will notice many subtle details (equipment details posters outside..) on the diverse pictures. There were definitely, at least, three different 1MW reactors - including the dummy in Florida.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    It is required by the state of Florida for any boiler over 110 gallons, 210 deg F operating temperature, or 400,000 btu/h (117 kW) production. It is required for other industrial equipment of similar size. See:


    myfloridacfo.com/division/sfm/…lerSafetyBrochure2015.pdf


    This has nothing to do with the contract or license agreement between Rossi and I.H. It is a legal requirement for operating equipment in Florida. If Rossi's gadget actually produced 1 MW, both he and his pretend company were in violation of the law. However, I am sure it did not produce more than 20 kW, so there is no problem.


    And if the gadget used something nuclear in producing power it would be illegal also under radiation protection laws. But, if course, it isn't since it doesn't work.

    Quote from Peter Ekstrom

    And if the gadget used something nuclear in producing power it would be illegal also under radiation protection laws. But, if course, it isn't since it doesn't work.


    As much as I respect you as a scientist, the FUD just isn't going to work, at least not with LENR enthusiasts. Yes, you may score some points with the public when the time comes, but you should at least consider the consequences of playing the fear/illegal card when something as promising as LENR+ could lift millions of people out of poverty.

    Quote from Peter Ekstrom

    And if the gadget used something nuclear in producing power it would be illegal also under radiation protection laws. But, if course, it isn't since it doesn't work.


    Just because a reaction is nuclear, does not necessarily imply penetrating radiation. Having said that I do agree that the majority of possible nuclear reactions do indeed poduce radiation. Neveretheless there are plausible CMNS models which predict heat without. Obviously, if these models are correct then there is probably no conflict wih radiation protection laws. Clearly a major obstacle which disqualifies the vast majority of models is the observation that little or no penetrating radiation is observed. But this does NOT imply "it doesn't work". :)

    Quote from Peter Ekstrom

    And if the gadget used something nuclear in producing power it would be illegal also under radiation protection laws.


    Previous experiments with Pd-D cold fusion show that it converts deuterium to helium without significant radiation. So if this is actually cold fusion you would not expect measurable radiation. The laws have not been adjusted to deal with this fact.


    Cold fusion resembles plutonium-238 in that it is easily shielded and it can probably be used safely even in things such as implanted pacemakers. Pu-238 pacemakers were used in the 1970s. See p. 24:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    That's exactly what I said: The reactor the people saw was there. It was the fake test reactor...


    In that case the ERV also only describes the fake test reactor, and Rossi failed in his responsibility to transfer IP to I.H. because he used a fake reactor. So he will lose the lawsuit, and he has made no progress toward commercialization. There was no point to the agreement with I.H., except as a means of swindling them out of $11 million, which he surely will not be allowed to keep. All because it is a fake reactor.


    This "explanation" becomes stranger and stranger. What would be the point of doing any of this? What benefit could there be? The actual reactor is hidden . . . for what purpose? What is he doing with it, and why?

    Quote from Alan Smith

    I think Wyttenbach means the 'real' reactor was hidden in the customer area and the dummy one people could see was actually the heat-sink.


    That would be a remarkable violation of the laws of thermodynamics. The fluid left the room at just over 100 deg C. It came back at 60 deg C. So, the hidden reactor in the next room magically swallowed up heat, and no heat was observed coming from the room or roof vents, with IR cameras and other means.


    The total volume of water in the reservoir did not change, so it was circulating somehow. That was not "different" water coming back.


    (The outgoing fluid was supposedly steam at just over 100 deg C. Actually, I think it was hot water somewhat below boiling, or slightly pressurized.)


    By the way, the inlet temperature puts a sharp limit on what the pretend customer might have done with the pretend process heat. Assume there really was 1 MW of process heat. It would have to be transferred with a heat exchanger. The heat exchanger fluid has to be colder than 60 deg C. Any warmer would be a violation of the Second Law, meaning it would be a perpetual motion machine. The customer cannot be using steam; only heat at 60 deg C. There are some industrial uses for water or air at this temperature, such as some some low temperature wood drying kilns. Some people have speculated that the facility next door is making spongy nickel. I think that is ruled out.


    In real life, I am sure nothing was going on next door, and there was only about 15 kW of heat, being extracted by a radiator and fan next door.

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