January 20 2015. Who's standing in the bay door? And look! Someone has the door open at 7863!
And there's that red truck again. (photo 2)
More From Rossi on Restricted Access to the Customer’s Plant
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Quote from "AlainCo"
Anyway there is no excuse to refuse access to the plant, even under NDA and with restricted/no access to machines, unless it is criminal activities or no activity.
Sorry Alain. You know I do respect you, I have no problem seeing lots of reason for the end customer wanting to be anonymous, both from a business and PR point of view. Your comment does not make sense. What I do know is that visitors peeked thru the door, saw activity and spoke to some engineer of the customer (not lawyer Johnson) and he was satisfied with performance. I guess him being an actor is the conspiracy in that case...
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Quote from "Jed"
IF the doors are shut, the waste heat even from a 20 kW reaction will overwhelm the air conditioner, making the inside of the container even warmer than it would be when the doors are open.
Still meditating on the sauna issue are you Jed. BTW, the roof does not look insulated according the swedish sauna standards in the pics ... It would easly leak heat all over even without vent. The AC btw was in the computer container to maintain good working conditions since 40C is not that comfy in the long run. And 40C at floor level would mean higher closer to the roof... go figure ... 20kW for 1000 m² / 6000 m³ would not make that happen... (not even in august when avg temp outside is 28C).
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IF the doors are left open THEN the air conditioning cannot do a bit of good.
How long will it take to grasp it???
I said the three doors of the building used to enter the container... To propell the heat out You simply need a 50$ vent from Wallmart...
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The only way to "draw out" any heat would be shut the shipping container doors, and if there were actually 1 MW of heat being generated then shutting the doors would "keep in" about a hundred times more heat than the air conditioner could draw out.
A standard unisolated steel shipping container can dissipated many kWh's. If you ever slept inside a military tank then you know how much heat is needed to "warm" a can!
IF the doors are left open THEN the air conditioning cannot do a bit of good. It will cool the air inside the container, warm the air of the room, and the air from the room will come into the box, making everything warmer.
This is only true if the outside (unisolated building - thin walls high K value) is warmer than the inside...IF the doors are shut, the waste heat even from a 20 kW reaction will overwhelm the air conditioner, making the inside of the container even warmer than it would be when the doors are open.
This was a silly joke...1 MW I-cat Version 1:
1 MW I-cat Version 2:
To make a final attempt to stop al FUD discussion about the heat released in the 1 MW container, I will try to make a calculation that is based on certified assumptions.
My home boiler, 400 liters, releases at 95C degrees versus ambient 20C degrees - certified - 3kWh a day. The isolation is medium and is comparable to the thickness of the E-cat modules isolation. His dimensions are (L,Radius: 172cm,36cm). Remember delta T = 75C!
One problem we face is, that Rossi used two completely different 1 MW buildups (See photos, check the structure) one has 56 modules the other only 42.
If we take the 42 units 1 MW version, which should be the newer design, then we can set the numbers of boiler equivalent (42) be equal to the number of E-cat elements. (6 x 172cm fits well into the length – 12meters - of the container)
Thus if the ambient temperature in Florida is in average around 27C and the outside conducting E-cat surface is at steam-temperature (102C) then 42 X 3 kWh/day are dissipated. This gives about 5.2 kWh/hour.
What are the up/down-sides?
Down's: 1/6 of the E-cats surface goes directly to the outside because it is in contact with the container wall. Thus we are down to 4.3kWh.
Other downs: Did all modules work or were some spare parts?Up's: If the internal surface temperature is eg. 127C (+25C) then this multiplies the wattage by 1.33 (*4.3) = 5.7kWh.
This is very, very far away from the FUD-erated 50kWh.. for the 1MW version - even at 200C degrees, we are below 10kWh. -
Still meditating on the sauna issue are you Jed. BTW, the roof does not look insulated according the swedish sauna standards in the pics ... It would easly leak heat all over even without vent.
In that case the air conditioner cannot possibly have an effect. -
IF the doors are left open THEN the air conditioning cannot do a bit of good. It will cool the air inside the container, warm the air of the room, and the air from the room will come into the box, making everything warmer.
This is only true if the outside (unisolated building - thin walls high K value) is warmer than the inside...
I mean the doors of the shipping container! Obviously an air conditioner cannot do any good if the box itself is open. The cool air will immediately mix with the room air. -
I mean the doors of the shipping container! Obviously an air conditioner cannot do any good if the box itself is open. The cool air will immediately mix with the room air.
Just to startup You brain. Assume Air-condo moves 10m3/minute. Difference Tin / Tout = 10 degrees. Volume of outside room 2500m3. How much will this increase the outside Temperature?? Multiple choice: 10C , 1C, 0.1C, 0.01C, 0.001C Degree take the closest...
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I think that a more pragmatic approach to the Cat problem is required. Soon everyone can see that this is the best approach.
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@Alan Smith,
You remind me of a true story of a guy who was born(?) blind due to some sort of optic nerve connection problem (or something to that effect).
Doctors were able to fix the connection, healing his blindness, when he was an adult.
But all he saw was a terrifying jumble of disjointed colors and shapes. He had never developed the processing part of his brain to deal with stereo vision, depth perception, edge detection, and object recognition.
I think he always wore covers over his eyes after that, and wanted the operation to be reversed. (I can't fully recall the "end" of the story. I suppose it could be Googled if anyone is interested.Edit: I seem to have posted this reply on the wrong thread.
Anyways, the story has always haunted me a bit. It suggests that maybe one could "lift the curtain", and still not understand a thing. -
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I am familiar with the problem of giving sight to those blind from birth. They lack the Neuronal network to make sense of what they see in many cases, and an adult brain may well lack the plasticity required to adapt. Dissapointment and depression may follow.
Life (and our brains) - it's more complex than we can imagine.
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@Alan Smith,
An interesting part of the same show was about a technology that maps vision, at a low resolution, to "taste" by a grid-like device placed on the tongue. Special software connected to a small camera concentrated the "image" output on basic details. Both blind and blindfolded people were able to manage "seeing" with this fairly well (edges, contrasts, large bold letters, but nothing detailed), after some several days of experience. Brains were fairly adaptable to this. Some people said that food had a whole new dimension to it, but it was easy to switch back and forth from taste and "seeing". -
kWh/hour? Really? I thought only Rossi did that!
No. It is internationally used standard terminolgy, typically used in the field of power generation, as even the most basic research could have shown you:
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Just to startup You brain. Assume Air-condo moves 10m3/minute. Difference Tin / Tout = 10 degrees. Volume of outside room 2500m3. How much will this increase the outside Temperature?? Multiple choice: 10C , 1C, 0.1C, 0.01C, 0.001C Degree take the closest...
I like to do basic physics sanity-checks on this stuff too.
Perhaps you would like to check my answers here - they are maybe wrong but the best I can do with google + 5 minutes + Physics A level qualifications.
Given this airflow, assuming convective cooling and the stated deltaT between unmixed input and output air stream (not the same as ambient for the two locations, but the only way we can process this) we have:
Power = deltaT X airflow X specific heat capacity of air
= 10 degreesC * 0.17m^3/s *1.2kJ/(Km^3) (that is from Cp - the constant pressure value - not quite right but will do)
or roughly 2 kW.In other words your stated convective airflow will dissipate less than 2kW of heat from an inner enclosure to an outer at 10C deltaT. Of course there are other heat losses, like both radiative and convective from the shipping container walls. Your earlier calculation of 6kW losses would then require (given this cooling) a deltaT of quite a bit more than 30C between shipping container and outer distribution warehouse (we do not have the AC in and out stream air perfectly mixed with the heat source and sink here).
Your "brain teaser" question is indeed a brain teaser. The temperature of the outer warehouse, given this, is unknown. We do not know from your data how the heat losses from such a warehouse relate to its deltaT with ambient air. Nor can we extrapolate in any meaningful way from e-cat heat losses to e-cat delivered power. The in-container heat loss mechanisms for this system are all independent of the delivered power because the depend only on external temperature and insulation of the e-cat system.
Further, as seems traditional for this thread, these calculations have no relevance I can see to the argument between IH and Rossi. Many other things do relate to this - but alas the simple "killer" facts all require information not formally disclosed by either Rossi or IH. We await tomorrow to see whether any more will emerge. So far the score is no killers from Rossi, silence (legally advised) from IH.
So if your main argument here - which seems very strongly stated - is that the known public facts can't definitively disprove Rossi's 1MW mystery customer claim that is true. You need facts known to IH and claimed known by Jed etc, but not known by us. OTOH, I agree with Bob, if you put together all the circumstantial evidence relating to the 1MW test then the chances of Rossi having anything that works in a noticeable way, and would therefore be a highly valuable industrial breakthrough, look very small - this is a judgement call based on so many different fragments that it will be subjective and difficult to argue - but I bet it is shared by many here.
If you claim that there are loose ends in many of the arguments put forward by Jed, then sure there are. The arguments in this thread and similar are either dead simple (what Jed claims IH have evidence for but we don't know) or full of unknowns and therefore equally full of loose ends.
If you argue from this unknown public information to some positive evidence for Rossi having what he claims, or even for a suspension of preliminary judgement, you are not on strong ground.
Many inventors make extravagant claims and Rossi's doing this, and not providing any clear external evidence that his claims are real, does not make a "wait and see" approach sensible. If somone has a working easily testable device and conducts some 15 or more public and/or independent tests none of which provide positive evidence of its working the presumption must be that it very likely does not work.
For many the involvement of IH was strong positive external evidence: that is now gone, and maybe tomorrow there will be strong negative external evidence to add to the existing weak negatives.
No information, in this context of many, many, public tests, is not the same as no information from a new device claimed but not yet tested. It is good deal more negative!
Which is why I can understand dislike of others who make strong claims on weak evidence, but not why anyone ignores the context here and supports Rossi's own strong claims on weak evidence.
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In other words your stated convective airflow will dissipate less than 2kW of heat from an inner enclosure to an outer at 10C deltaT.
Wellcome back TC!
You are right. The air-condo model shown in the picture does not deliver much more, might be 3.5 kWh at most.
The post had only one reason: To stop 20kWh is very hot FUD by Jed and 50kWh waste-heat (ABD...) ...
I asked them to focus on the real weakness of the Rossi story, covered behind the wall. The unknown endothermic process. Now, where we know who the neighbors were, they could interview them!
May be You can help them...
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If you claim that there are loose ends in many of the arguments put forward by Jed, then sure there are.
Yes! There are many, as I well know. That's deliberate. I hope that evidence presented by I.H. ties up the loose ends, but I have no idea whether this will happen. -
I found Unit 7861 interior photos from Feb 2014. Good old interweb. Nothing goes away...
That's 88 feet of pallet racking in that photo. -
I can see a floor to ceiling wall, cutting across the unit. Whoever took the above photo probably had their back up to it.
Office space I presume. About 110 to 120 feet back from the bay doors. Looks like lots of windows on the upper half. (Could be a coffered upper wall). The windows or coffers are high enough to start at a second floor of front office space. White wall, with an exit sign over a door, closer to the 7859 unit side. If you came in the front door, it would be just a bit to your left, but almost straight ahead. No window on the door.
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The Customer's giant thing. All but trapped in there. Has to fit through some standard doors, in pieces, or have a wall ripped out, and squeeze past the containers. They must have sent an angry letter to IH.
Did they put it in before the Plant went in?
