I don't recall. The date is in the legal papers. But you make an interesting point. Perhaps this photo is the e-cat set up in North Carolina, before it was moved.
Then Rossi's Trademark paperwork is falsified. He claimed, as did his attorney (H.W.J.) that this was in the Customer location, providing heat.
So much for the New Fire logo.
It was as hot as the engine block of a large truck that had been driving for an hour
Which gets (and stays) so hot only because convection-driven cooling is a very poor method of transferring it's heat to the surrounding air. (If we ignore the effect of its normal radiator, which relies on forced airflow). Of course, the temperature of the surrounding air really only depends on its heat capacity and the rate at which the rooms total volume of air is exchanged.
In my opinion, there is not the slightest chance a machine as frail as Rossi's, with such small pipes and reactors, could be producing 1 MW, or even 100 kW. The whole thing would explode.
1MW of steam would flow through that pipe at 80ft/s across about 2.5bar differential pressure . Nothing too out of the ordinary there.
The temperature of the surrounding air really only depends on its heat capacity and the rate at which the rooms total volume of air is exchanged.
There was only a small fan in the shipping container, and another small fan in the reactor room ceiling. It was normal warehouse space ventilation, not industrial. I am sure the waste heat would be at least 100 kW if there were 1 MW of heat. 100 kW in that room with that ventilation would be fatally hot.
1MW of steam would flow through that pipe at 80ft/s across about 2.5bar differential pressure .
The pressure was recorded as 0.0 bar, as I noted. I believe it was actually just above 1, and the fluid was water, not steam.
An interesting question, Jed, is:
What would happen to the truck engine (and the gas turbine), as mentioned in your earlier examples, if it was surrounded by insulation, like the alleged e-cat?
Could you now touch the surface of the generator?
Would the overall efficiency of the truck engine increase?
Would it melt the internals, or could they possibly settle to a steady temperature below their melting point?
And, can this steady-state temperature be adjusted by altering the thickness of the surrounding insulation?
Speaking of North Carolina, there is another photo of the red Plant, which I believe was taken in NC, that shows the other end (presumably) of the one of the red containers, with some hoses or cables going in (that don't show up in the USPTO images). There is a grey, standard-looking steel door on the container, open. Uniquely, this photo has the ceiling joists going 90° relative to the container (I think) compared to the USPTO images. The wall has some material, with some grooves (unlike the "partition") but in color similar to the partition, and the cables/hoses look like they might go into the wall, but may take a 90° bend there, hidden by a US flag. This particular image used to be on the andrea-rossi.com site, but I can't find it there. I have a copy. I suspect it is copyrighted. It can be found here, though. (link below)
I think Barry W is standing next to the AC unit inside the container that appears in this other photo, in a different photo on the same webpage, below. (That would place the grey door behind him.)
What would happen to the truck engine (and the gas turbine), as mentioned in your earlier examples, if it was surrounded by insulation, like the alleged e-cat?
Could you now touch the surface of the generator?
It was not a truck engine. It was a water heater that works by mechanical force and ultrasound:
Very useful in many market niches.
You could not touch the surface. You be severely burned in a matter of seconds.
Sorry, I misunderstood. That's one really "cool" water heater, the design is clever than it appears at first glance, to make sure it runs reliably.
But even if you swap it over, I think my slightly patronising Socratic questions still make valid points.
I visited a factory with a ~100 kW steam producer made by Hydrodynamics. It was so loud you had to shout. The steam plume could kill someone. It had heavy duty pipes, and the waste heat made the reactor surface so hot, it would severely burn someone in a few seconds, or kill him in a minute or so. It was as hot as the engine block of a large truck that had been driving for an hour.
If you want a reasonable comparison, look at electrically-powered boilers. (They don't even quote the noise or the outside temperatures, because they are quiet and insulated.)
eg http://www.vaporpower.com/wp-c…PR_Electrode_Brochure.pdf
1MW is between a BBJ-300 and BBJ-540. Cylinder OD 6 feet, height 14 feet. The 1MW ecat probably has a much more efficient heat-to-water design, so I expect it to be smaller.
ps : Non-electric steam boilers in the 100MW range have sound levels of around 80dB .
https://books.google.com/books?id=1x_RvffW-hcC&pg=PA873&lpg=PA873&dq=steam+boiler+sound+level&source=bl&ots=-09LIbQDDT&sig=_XVKFjE_nZUmUluppGJzlNKvYVw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9taSY-aPOAhWBQiYKHcfbAUwQ6AEINDAE#v=onepage&q=steam boiler sound level&f=false and https://www.cedengineering.com/userfiles/Intro to Sound Level Data for Mech & Elec Equip.pdf tables 5. The latter notes : Noise levels are much lower off the side and rear of the typical boiler. The wide variety of blower assemblies, air and fuel inlet arrangements, burners, and combustion chambers provides such variability in the noise data that it is impossible simply to correlate noise with heating capacity.
For M.Y. : Section 15 gives the noise figures for a typical gas turbine ... 170dB for each of the inlet, casing and exhaust.
Non-electric steam boilers in the 100MW range have sound levels of around 80dB
ROTFLMAO that's about one third of the volume of my electric hedge trimmer!!
Maybe certain libraries could use a few more engineering textbooks on their shelves?
Here's a 600/750KW with construction details.
http://www.reimersinc.com/_ass…600-750_Brochure_Rev2.pdf
Note that the steam outlet size is 4 inches.
Not so scary, is it? (Discounted 25% shrieks from 1MW)
If you want a reasonable comparison, look at electrically-powered boilers. (They don't even quote the noise or the outside temperatures, because they are quiet and insulated.)
Nope. The steam itself makes a terrific noise, just going through the pipes.
Jed, using the subsonic flow noise formula found here: http://www.peutz.de/pdf/Pipe_noise.pdf I calculate the noise inside the pipe to be 63dB.
Damned engineering textbooks eh? You should check that though. One cannot be a World Class Expert in all fields.
Steam D=1.18kg/m3, v=25m/s, S=0.013m2)
Maybe you heard supersonic flow?
Edit : beaten by George/Paul/Ringo/John : I had that paper, but not the numbers to plug in.
Nope. The steam itself makes a terrific noise, just going through the pipes.
Badly-sized pipes, then. (Plus valves and stuff).
1MW = 3280 lbs/hr = 1487 kg/hr http://www.abraxasenergy.com/e…ersion-calculators/power/
Plug that into a pipe-sizing calculator : http://steammain.com/Steam-pipe-sizing-estimator
From the "ecat logo" photo (and the unhiding-wall) I'm guessing a 5 meter run, a 5 inch pipe (more than 4, anyway .. I might count pixels later) and Rossi's 1 barg pressure.
"To keep noise and any possible pipe erosion down it is advisable to keep the velocity of the steam down below 40m/s. This may vary on some applications and depends on the length of steam pipe."
4-inch pipe : 44 m/s 5-inch: 28 m/sec. So pipe noise shouldn't be a problem.
(Can't find a source, but it noise seems to be linear with velocity as long as it is sub-sonic, after which noise increases dramatically.)
Jed, I get the impression that you have been to the test site, or have seen photos of the site. I know that if this is true, you cannot comment on it. (F9)
But this idea might explain why you disagree about some things that would appear to be verified by the photos. They could be perhaps from a different place or time relative to the test.
Interesting.
Anyways, neat day.
Back to Lugano Sudoku...
Speaking of North Carolina, there is another photo of the red Plant, which I believe <i>was </i>taken in NC, that shows the other end (presumably) of the one of the red containers, with some hoses or cables going in (that don't show up in the USPTO images).…
Look at the roof beams and how they are supported at the wall interfaces in the 2 red container photos. They are the same in both photos of the red containers, so both photos are probably at the same site.
Also attached how the reactors, heat exchanger, condensate tank and piping may have been arranged.
As the 40ft ECat container with the dual reactors is clearly elevated quote a lot, this would suggest the black unit on the other side of the wall is 10ft high as Rossi claimed, which BTW does not have the top structure of a container.
Yes, they look very similar.
In one photo the ceiling joists are perpendicular to the long axis of the containers, in the other they are parallel.
The photo with the grey door is probably in NC, which is quite possibly why it disappeared from from the website. Conflicts with the signed affidavit claiming it is from the Customer site. Conflicts with the affidavit, and from comments from those who might know about the test site.
Very inconvenient.
But I suppose many warehouses look similar on the inside...
Yes, they look very similar.
In one photo the ceiling joists are perpendicular to the long axis of the containers, in the other they are parallel.
The photo with the grey door is probably in NC, which is quite possibly why it disappeared from from the…
In both photos the ceiling beams are at right angles to the length axis of the Red containers, the wall to beam supports are the same and the beam sizes are the same.
Also note there are more than 1 Grey door in the office container. Doors have different handles, locks and swing open differently.
I suggest both images are in Doral.
I see container doors, one open, facing some sort of office space in your image. Not happening in Doral. Hinges inside, door opens in. Also has lock above handle.
Door is outside of container, facing the container. Should be either bay doors or partition without door. Thing should be running, not being built.
I seem to have misinterpreted the ceiling joists.
So both images are quite possibly in NC.
Also: Andrea Rossi made several statements confirming the authenticity of the picture on the JONP. Here is one:
Mark Saker:
These photos, published on my personal website, have been made months
ago in Raleigh’s factory, during the final phases of the manufacturing .
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Also note there are more than 1 Grey door in the office container. Doors have different handles, locks and swing open differently.
If your floor plan is correct, and that door is in the wall leading to the customer, the wall is either higher at that location than what is shown in the image with the pipes going through it, or the wall had been raised by the time the picture was taken, or the door does not lead into the same area as where the two pipes are feeding into.
I'm wavering on whether that door goes into the customer area.
Well, I maybe jumping to conclusions, but I would say that the photo evidence and the statement from Rossi shows an extreme likelihood that both photos are in NC, which I am sure IH can verify with comparison photos of the NC site and the test site.
So I expect HWJ will be added to the IH counterclaim list.
