This is contract law and all it takes for the whole agreement to not be binding is a simple failure to meet strict definitions of the various roles.
Your analysis is plausible. But, the "rub" is in the details defining a "customer" under the contract. I suspect that too is for the court to rule on. A separate legal entity, even under substantial ownership or control of Rossi, might still qualify as a "customer" unless such is specifically forbidden.
The real problem is it just gets dafter.
Yes, in the spiral of commentary here. In reality, a system where low grade heat is used to process/produce something useful or essential to producing marketable products (say LENR devices, if these actually work) seems to me to be plausible and certainly consistent with industrial process chemistry as it is practiced. Hazardous waste reduction. Co-generation. Waste heat recovery.
No such thing as a water flat-rate in FL.
Wrong with respect to well water in Florida-- the flat rate exists and it is often "zero". South Florida over rides an extensive aquifer. While it is controversial, many wells draw freely from it.
OK, well, I guess IH knows their legal loopholes and really, there was no "customer".
It's worse than the customer being fake. Unless Leonardo produce an additional document showing that the Guaranteed Performance Test was dependent upon the availability of a customer to buy energy, the existing documents will be what are consulted for the details of the GPT. They make no mention at all of a customer. In addition, Rossi himself acknowledges in an email before the relocation to Florida that IH have made space available in North Carolina, but he has other ideas and thinks it would be better to move the operation to Florida (where there's a customer).
Unless a new document is produced, the connection between the GPT and a customer appears to be a Rossi thing.
@ THH: Chemistry and Carnot are two different disziplines.But anyway, if You can find a process to harvest the energy of a delta T of 70C and store it chemically then You are a rich man.But the other way round. It takes a lot of energy to liquidate a massive body.., or to break up raw material (phase change). But where are the transportations?I would reevaluate your post...
I don't understand this.
Chemistry is somewhat more complicate. A reaction is in princip not only Enthalpy driven. The most important parameter is called reaction kinetics, which results from steric conformance of the reaction center.
Thus even a reaction with a negative enhalphy can happen if the product is kinetically much more stable than the counterpart...
What I was pointing to, was that in a chemical reaction, You can have two input products, which are solids and after a reaction remain fluid.
So You must sum up the melting energies of both. If the melting point are somewhat higher than ambient, then You have an efficient heat dump!
Thus Your (Carnot) conclusion was obviously wrong.
But of course I didn't see somebody, who claimed the shipping of some truckloads a day.
After reading way too many posts on the Rossi-IH suit (on the vortex, here, e-Cat World, etc.), a thought occurred to me:
...........
IIRC, IH was not really putting any effort into finding a customer so that the test could proceed and, upon a successful run, the outstanding fee would be paid to Rossi.
.
A probable problem with this logic is that the GPT contract does not require a customer, at least to my reading of it. IH states they had setup the test facility in NC and Rossi refused to run the test there. So the problem of there "not being a customer in the Doral" facility is not a problem of the GPT contract. It is a problem in that it shows possible fraud and bad faith in that if there were no customer, Rossi had made much assertion that there was. To the point of setting up a shell company, producing letter heads and possibly even a fake employee.
You have to ask yourself... Darden et. al are not newbies. They became wealthy by conducting business. In front of them is the biggest thing since steam power, worth billions. Do you think they really would have "Ho hum, we are not really interested so we are dragging our feet. Finding a customer is so hard". ? Does this seem likely or consistent with their history?
Yet on the other hand, we have repeated confirmation from multiple people, even in Mats Lewan's book, that when truly independent tests were requested, that Rossi ALWAYS became hostile and kicked the people out. Such as NASA. So which follows the confirmed pattern here?
This is not proof, but it is comparing current events with past patterns. Many people want the eCat to work. I want it to work. However it is often illogical to build complex events to explain something that has a simple answer. UFO theorist go to great pains building conspiracy theories. Bigfoot believers build great complex stories about why no bodies are found, etc. I believe some are falling into the "turtles all the way down" problem! At one time, people stated that the world was flat and rested on the back of a larger turtle. Many believed this. Then someone asked what the turtle was standing on... well.... another turtle of course! But then this posed another problem.... what was that turtle standing on? So they saying "turtles all the way down" came to being.
The 1 year test is becoming "turtles all the way down". People are trying to defend something by hypothesizing something that requires another "layer" of questionable support. Pretty soon we are in a "turtles all the way down" scenario. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..... it is a duck! Of course there could have been a genic mutation of a chameleon that caused it's scales to turn to feathers. This caused it to start walking on two legs and flaps it's front legs to keep cool. But then it started flying when this happened. It got so excited that it started making noises which sounded like quacks. One can create a very "quacked up" story line!
To test one's grounded logic, they should apply the same thinking to other comparable scenarios. For example, if one really believes Rossi, they should really believe Steorn and BLP. Both have taken similar paths, made similar claims and provided similar but questionable evidence. Yet most on this list do not support BLP with near the gusto as Rossi. Why? I find this interesting.
(The above duck story is not meant to belittle someone's opinion, just to humorously paint a picture of how logic can get skewed) 
Quote
Chemistry is somewhat more complicate. A reaction is in princip not only Enthalpy driven. The most important parameter is called reaction kinetics, which results from steric conformance of the reaction center.Thus even a reaction with a negative enhalphy can happen if the product is kinetically much more stable than the counterpart...What I was pointing to, was that in a chemical reaction, You can have two input products, which are solids and after a reaction remain fluid.So You must sum up the melting energies of both. If the melting point are somewhat higher than ambient, then You have an efficient heat dump!Thus Your (Carnot) conclusion was obviously wrong.
(1) Yes indeed, reaction kinetics alters (in fact determines) equilibrium position and hence "which way" a reaction will go. I'm not arguing reactions with negative enthalpy cannot happen - that would be the same as saying that endothermic reactions cannot happen!
(2) "steric conformance of the reaction centre" - unnecessary jargin of polemic use only
(3) You suppose a phase change + chemical reaction. That is fine and I'll let you count 100% of the phase change enthalpy. But only 20% of embodied chemical entopy. You've chosen an example which makes it difficult to separate the two but they are, in principle, quite different.
(4) as you've pointed out, this does not change things. Without refrigerated lorries delivering ice cubes, or some equivalent, this is impossible. In the real world, it is not a feasible reading of facts although no doubt on ECW it makes one of the more believable RossiTales. That reflects only upon the strength of the RossiTale (rT) as a unit of implausibility.
(4) as you've pointed out, this does not change things.
You are right: It does not alter the weird Rossi story.
But Your statement was wrong and inadequate. We should make only correct assumptions and not commit the same fouls as the other side does!
We should make only correct assumptions and not commit the same fouls as the other side does!
And you should not make the mistake of thinking this is a two sided argument. It looks more and more like a polygonal one. 
QuoteBut Your statement was wrong and inadequate. We should make only correct assumptions and not commit the same fouls as the other side does!
Which statement was that? I'm not aware of any wrong statement but if such exists I will retract it. My original statement (setting context here) specifically distinguished phase chnage (100% absorption) from chemical enthalpy (20% absorption). I'm quite careful about such things.
Carnot efficiency = 373 - 313/313 ~ 20%. Thus even with an optimally efficient endothermic process leading to embodied chemical energy the required waste heat is still 800kW.
So the "endothermic reaction" excuse is just blog silliness.
So the "endothermic reaction" excuse is just blog silliness.
As this is possible to some large extent.. much larger than carnot allows..
These "red" words fall back on You.
Don't fight with wrong arguments. May be You know the old proverb. Fighting for peace is like f.. for virginity!
Yet most on this list do not support BLP with near the gusto as Rossi. Why? I find this interesting.
Because BLP almost always talks in terms of the amazing power that they produce, and rarely if ever focus on energy balance. Those who don't understand the difference between power and energy are enamored by BLP. Their devices also seem to be quite complex, nearly impossible to replicate (due to their complexity), and look like they would last about one day before needing maintenance.
Because BLP almost always talks in terms of the amazing power that they produce, and rarely if ever focus on energy balance. Those who don't understand the difference between power and energy are enamored by BLP. Their devices also seem to be quite complex, nearly impossible to replicate (due to their complexity), and look like they would last about one day before needing maintenance.
2 things
1) In one scenario (a couple steps above worst case: LENR = not real) LENR might end up being "just" a way for obtaining a much faster rate of reaction than chemical (high *power* density), while still being limited to chemical *energy* density.
2) The latest BLP contraptions look complex but to my understanding in the end Mills is vaporizing metallic pellets containing water traces using very large currents. The experiment is simple from a scientific point of view, but as to whether this process can actually be commercially exploited ... ^____^
thinLine,
Yes, I can believe your scenario that IH assumed Rossi was up to something with the customer thing. Even before the deal was signed in Apr 2013, there was already a good deal of suspicion about Rossi when he refused someone from a big testing company to oversee the VT.
After that Rossi had, according to IH, avoided starting the GPT in their facility as the contract required, and all of a sudden Rossi pops up with this "magnicance" a scheme for Florida...so yeah, who would not think something was up? As IHFB says...these guys are seasoned businessmen too.
They (IH) then covered themselves legally with the "term sheet", figuring if Rossi did something illegal, they were protected...plus got paid $25-30,000/month as icing on the cake. And hey, they probably thought... maybe it will work, nothing to lose right? Until Rossi started name dropping ERV, GPT, and 400 day test to them and on his JONP. Then they knew he was trying to set them up for the $89 million, and hired Murray to start digging around.
Because BLP almost always talks in terms of the amazing power that they produce, and rarely if ever focus on energy balance. Those who don't understand the difference between power and energy are enamored by BLP. Their devices also seem to be quite complex, nearly impossible to replicate (due to their complexity), and look like they would last about one day before needing maintenance.
Please note that I am not trying to stir up any contextual debate, but am honestly curious as to your view of Rossi and BLP.
"Because BLP almost always talks in terms of the amazing power that they produce, and rarely if ever focus on energy balance"...
One of the big reasons people doubt Rossi is the fact that his power in versus power out measurements are so flawed. That he does not allow hands off testing. The current Doral facility seems to be a direct result of IH wanting to test in NC and Rossi not allowing it. All tests performed have had serious questions about "COP". Then one considers the Quark...
Light, Heat, direct electrical production, all from the same device. These types of statements seem to fly in the face of reason. Seemingly too good to be true. And the proof? A very bad, fuzzy photo of a blue light. I understand that not everything an inventor does can be publicly revealed. But when it comes to power, COP, types of conversion, I personally do not BLP making any claims that exceeds Rossi. Perhaps even less so!
"Their devices also seem to be quite complex, nearly impossible to replicate (due to their complexity".
Rossi himself stated that the 1MW plant had over 36,000 components at one time. Some people ask why he demanded testing such a complicated 1MW plant when a single reactor (such as Lugano) would have been much more simple and easier to test. Even with Lugano, serious questions abound. While I agree, BLP's device does not look like it would move to commercialization very easily, it actually seems to have far fewer components than the 1MW plant
does. Then we consider the Quark. Direct electrical production yet from something that is 1000 C in temperature. How does one connect electrical wires to this? If it is an electrical field, how does one capture that in the severe heat? We do not know the details, if it is even true.
"...look like they would last about one day before needing maintenance."
Rossi had to stay in the container 16 hours per day, according to his own words. I realize there is a difference between control and maintenance, but they both relate to up time. It appears the eCat does not run for anyone unless Rossi himself is at the controls. This means the eCat does not run at all, much less a day if Rossi is not there. Both the eCat and BLP would have a lot of improvement before either would go to production.
I would like for some to consider this about Rossi versus BLP. BLP (Mills) is very stand-offish. He seems not to be very personable. Rossi on the other hand posts daily. He plays the "kind, persecuted grandfather character" quite well. What he portrays on blogs makes many want to like and support him. I was in that frame of mind early on myself. The "under dog" syndrome so to speak. People often form a personal affiliation with certain external entities and it become almost part of themselves. I am a Cardinals baseball fan. If people start bashing them, I take it personally! It does not matter if they play well or really stink, do not bash "my Cardinals"! Others have political ties. Clinton is an angel and Trump the devil. Or the exact opposite if one is from the other camp. The both cannot be correct can they?
So could it be that many really have formed a personal affiliation with the eCat such as I have with a baseball team. The Cardinals are the "best" and the eCat "must work"! Regardless of what the facts say. The Cardinals are way behind the Cubs. The Cubs have a better pitching staff, better hitting, better fielding, etc. etc.... NO WAY! Cards are better! I cannot accept that the Cubs are better and never will! 
And I will make up reasons why the Cards are better all day long to prove my point!
I do not know how others think. I admit that I once really supported Rossi because I wanted the eCat to be true. I wrapped myself up in it so much that I did not want to disappoint myself by "turning to the dark side" and confess it probably did not work. But there came a point when the evidence would not allow me to think otherwise.
It appears the eCat does not run for anyone unless Rossi himself is at the controls.
The attitude looks more like a watch-dog...
Please note that I am not trying to stir up any contextual debate, but am honestly curious as to your view of Rossi and BLP.
BLP has reported reliably measured COP's up to 10. Their/"the same process" is also used by many Russian teams, with the same success - to be unable to deliver a 'self running' production system.
BLP: Is a tough engineering issue, with a much to far reaching goal: To produce electricity without thermal conversion!
Quote from THHuxley: “Carnot efficiency = 373 - 313/313 ~ 20%. Thus even with an optimally efficient endothermic process leading to embodied chemical energy the required waste heat is still 800kW.
<span style="color: #FF0000">
So the "endothermic reaction" excuse is just blog</span>…
Wyttenbach: I suggest you distinguish, as I do, between endothermic reaction and phase change?
If however you view the "melting ice cubes" scenario as anything but silliness I will simply pray to whatever deity is appropriate that you be enlightened from your error.
A probable problem with this logic is that the GPT contract does not require a customer, at least to my reading of it. IH states they had setup the test facility in NC and Rossi refused to run the test there. So the problem of there "not being a customer in the Doral" facility is not a problem of the GPT contract. It is a problem in that it shows possible fraud and bad faith in that if there were no customer, Rossi had made much assertion that there was. To the point of setting up a shell company, producing letter heads and possibly even a fake employee.
You have to ask yourself... Darden et. al are not newbies. They became wealthy by conducting business. In front of them is the biggest thing since steam power, worth billions. Do you think they really would have "Ho hum, we are not really interested so we are dragging our feet. Finding a customer is so hard". ? Does this seem likely or consistent with their history?
You're right, the contract does not spell out the existence of a customer as being needed for the test, but, as you said, the nature of the customer not being independent from Rossi would bring into question the goings-on in any legal dispute and paint Rossi in a bad light wrt him acting in good faith. That this is exactly what has happened, I don't think is debatable.
Your second point in the quote above is also very valid and, in fact, strengthens my premise: that IH knew very well the nature of these types of contracts and how, upon dispute, they could be gotten out of.
With the above in mind, it's not so hard to come up with a sequence of events that doesn't imply turtles all the way down, or one layer of complexity over another.
Darden et al hear of this Rossi thing and want to get into a closer relationship with Rossi through some kind of investment.
Not long after, the agreement is drawn up and, $10 million is paid after a 24h perfunctory validation and IH gets the formula to the secret sauce.
Here is where Darden's team's savvy comes into play. The way the agreement has been laid out, IH has nothing to lose. If Rossi plays nice and reveals all, IH pays out $89 million more and gets the deal of the millennium. If not, i.e. if the secret sauce isn't all that is needed to successfully run the plant or, if Rossi develops something along the way that would make the low heat eCat redundant, the contract made out such that it can be easily gotten out of on the basis of Rossi acting in bad faith. In any case, the mere existence of the contract is enough to assure Darden of additional investments, as has been shown.
Over the time of the Guaranteed Performance test Rossi in fact is cagey about the IP he reveals to IH (maybe because he sees them nosing around possible competitors, sees them as being too aggressive wrt claiming IP that shouldn't belong to them, or because he has second thoughts and thinks he gave things away for too little, for example).
At the end, Rossi claims GPT is valid and that he is owed $89 million more. IH, on the other hand, is not satisfied with the level of IP disclosure from Rossi, nor with the QuarkX tech making what they agreed to pay for probably worthless. Having already benefited from the agreement with Rossi and knowing that the agreement can easily be disputed legally, decide it's in their interest to do just that.
This all isn't very complicated, doesn't require much from the participants other than to act like typical parties in such agreements, i.e. just looking out for their own interests. Neither side should be accused of having bad intentions. Things played out in a reasonably predictable way, given the circumstances. IH benefited, Rossi benefited (of course he would like more out of the agreement, but with the money he did get from IH he was able to further his work on the QuarkX).
If it's not clear from what I've written up until now, I do believe that Rossi does have something real.
Display More[quote='Bob','https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3627-Rossi-Customer’s-Manufacturing-Process-was-Endothermic/?postID=33041#post33041']
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This all isn't very complicated, doesn't require much from the participants other than to act like typical parties in such agreements, i.e. just looking out for their own interests. Neither side should be accused of having bad intentions. Things played out in a reasonably predictable way, given the circumstances. IH benefited, Rossi benefited (of course he would like more out of the agreement, but with the money he did get from IH he was able to further his work on the QuarkX).
If it's not clear from what I've written up until now, I do believe that Rossi does have something real.
.....
I think your scenario is very close to mine. The only difference is that I am pretty pessimistic about Rossi having anything. Perhaps something he cannot control, perhaps something that is still very unproven, but I do not believe he has a "working 1mw plant". I really doubt the Quark! That is almost fairy dust technology! (But then the telephone was viewed almost as magic at one time!)
I do not buy into the "IH = evil corporation trying to steal Rossi's goods" theory at all. I think if an appropriate GPT was conducted and it showed the technology worked, they would have been glad to pay 89 million. And probably give Rossi bonuses to boot! But it did not turn out that way and they were not simply going to hand over 89 million for nothing.
Time will tell but here is my "gut feeling" :
- Rossi will soon drop the lawsuit stating that it is taking too much time away from "making production" and R&D on the QuarkX. Hardcore believers will accept without reservation
and support him. IH is evil after all and Rossi the persecuted saint.
- Then it will be a question if IH continues the counter suit against Rossi. I suspect they might. If that is the case, then Penon and Fabiani stay Europe and Rossi joins them. 11 million is still a lot of money to live on! I have no idea if there could be extradition for this type of trial or not. I doubt IH would pursue that. Even then, the hardcore believers will still support him, now that "the powers that be" and "big government interests" have closed in and are trying to squash him.
-What happens in either case? Some think it will be impossible for Rossi to obtain further money for his ventures, but I am not so sure! 
I do not buy into the "IH = evil corporation trying to steal Rossi's goods" theory at all. I think if an appropriate GPT was conducted and it showed the technology worked, they would have been glad to pay 89 million.
They are generous and helpful to other researchers so I think this is the case.
