Rossi: Customer’s Manufacturing Process was Endothermic

Quote from axil

PVC piping can do the job (hot water effluent)

Temperature limitations for PVC-U DWV pipe

Thermal cycling tests for PVC drainage pipes require that a test installation withstand alternating 90 second cycles of 34 litres of water at 88°C to 95°C with 34 litres

Nope. PVC is rated no higher than 60°C:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.…ting-pressure-d_1621.html

Maybe you mean CPVC, which goes up to 82°C (same table).

The PVC limit is why Florida does not allow people to dump water warmer than that. See:

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf

Quote from Alan Smith

There is (probably/possibly) another reason they are not too keen on very hot water going into the drainage system. Prolonged exposure to 50C plus is quite sufficient to kill all the helpful micro-orgamisms in the sewage treatment and filtration system.

The dilution effect from the effluent from many customers will save the bugs from death from heat.

Quote from JedRothwell

See:

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf

Link is dead

Quote from axil

Link is dead

Sometimes the forum software parses the links weird. Posting links with the link button prevents that.
(selecting the whole line, not clicking on it, but copy and paste it to the browser search bar works on this one.)

Quote from Alan Smith

In general it would. But not if the hot-water volume was very large and close to the sewage plant. When running large complex and capital intensive systems of any kind you have to make sure that the rules are followed not just in most cases, but in every case. Otherwise Alligators may bite you in the ass. Especially in Florida.

If someone sets the temperature on their water heater to 70C because they like very clean dishes, what can florida do?

Quote from axil

codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 FloridaCodes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf

Link is dead

It does not copy here correctly. The software here cuts off the address. Try this, with xxxx removed:

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Copy that string and enter it into the browser manually.

Quote from axil

If someone sets the temperature on their water heat to 70C because they like very clean dishes, what can florida do?

No can do. Household water heaters are limited to 50 deg C maximum temperature, by law.

Anyway, even if you pour a few gallons of boiling water down the drain, at worst you will only destroy your own plumbing. By the time the water reaches the street sewer it will probably be mixed with cold water and sewage, or simply cooled by the pipes, and it will be cooler. You can only damage the street sewer by dumping hundreds of gallons.

(There should not be a lot of water or sewage in your pipes, if they are at the correct angle.)

Factories and other places that produce steam or boiling hot water must cool it by "approved cooling methods" before disposing of it, according the Florida codes, part 701.7.

Quote from JedRothwell

It does not copy here correctly. The software here cuts off the address. Try this, with xxxx removed:

xxxxhttp://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf

Copy that string and enter it into the browser manually.

A air cooled heat exchanger must reduce the effluent temperature of the customers leaching effluent by 15C (75C to 60C) or the heated effluent could be mixed with cold (13C) water before release into the public waste system.

whattayaknow. The forum software hates it... I changed up the selection to https to get it go. Never had to do that before.

http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf

Quote from axil

A air cooled heat exchanger must reduce the effluent temperature of the customers leaching effluent by 15C (75C to 60C) or the heated effluent could be mixed with cold (13C) . . .

Where did you find that? I don't see that in the document. I referred to section 701.7.

Quote from JedRothwell

Where did you find that? I don't see that in the document. I referred to section 701.7.

This is a requirement that the customer (Customer vs. state) is responsible for and is not subject to the IH/Rossi deal.

Quote from Alan Smith

In general it would. But not if the hot-water volume was very large and close to the sewage plant. When running large complex and capital intensive systems of any kind you have to make sure that the rules are followed not just in most cases, but in every case. Otherwise Alligators may bite you in the ass. Especially in Florida.

Alligators will die from the heat and who will check for germ free sewer water?

http://www.miamidade.gov/water…rate-schedule-2015-16.pdf

It looks like to me, the water billing for non residential customers in dade county is based on the size of the meter, not how much water is used in excess of the maximum rate per month gallonage. For example, for a 3 inch meter, the cost is under $100 per month no matter how much water that is used.

Read again, axil. They charge for the meter and, on top of that, for capacity used. Capacity used is always per unit. So for example the first 400 ccf cost $1.38 per 100 ccf. If you're using more than the maximum price listed,, they're charging the maximum price but again per unit. No such thing as a water flat-rate in FL.

Quote from Axil

There must have been a "heat on demand" relationship between the customer and the reactor such that the demand for heat varied with the "maximum heat production rate" being limited to 3.66 gallons per second. Rossi's reactor control mechanism must self throttle to reduce heat production based on demand. The reactor must automatically reduce power production based on the heat required by the customer on a heat required per second basis.This must be true because the customer was billed by IH for the amount of heat consumed.

Such a level of certainty! Over a matter where most disagree with you. And your premise is wrong. The pseudo-customer wrote to IH stating their estimate of how much power was consumed. You've got it the wrong way round.

After reading way too many posts on the Rossi-IH suit (on the vortex, here, e-Cat World, etc.), a thought occurred to me:

Let's put aside (for now at least) the debate as to the reality of an industrial process and assume that there was something using up the heat and wasting any excess.

Instead, I'll go over what I recall Rossi mentioning wrt this test.

IIRC, IH was not really putting any effort into finding a customer so that the test could proceed and, upon a successful run, the outstanding fee would be paid to Rossi.

Rossi, wanting to complete the contract and see the full sum in his pocket, was anxious to move ahead with the test. In his business dealings he had come into contact with a possible consumer of energy on the scale needed here - e.g. Axil's definition of who this might be could be one possibility, but even if not, in my version of how things played out (and how Axil has it, too), it would be someone that Rossi had some sort of association with.

He then proposes this person/business/process as the customer for the test to IH and they, thinking ahead, readily (or at least with not much fuss) agree.

Partway through the test, IH starts playing out their hand and begins making noises about smelling something fishy.

Rossi, senses that the test will be declared a failure based on the growing discontent he sees coming from IH and, right at the end, sues IH with the claims that everyone is familiar with by now.

In these claims, the contract that had been drawn up between IH, Rossi and the customer was made public, along with the assertion that IH had failed to live up to their part of the contract upon successful completion of the test.

IH, in turn, responded to these claims with their own, where one of the main points was that "there was no customer", therefore the contract was not fulfilled as written and, therefore, no completion fee needed to be paid.

OK, well, I guess IH knows their legal loopholes and really, there was no "customer".

What if, when Rossi approached IH, they knew that any future lawsuit disputing the validity of the contract as worded would find the "customer" to be unsuitable (due to their relationship with Rossi) and, therefore, would result in that contract being declared void due to that role of the contract not being met.

It does not matter if Rossi says IH agreed to this party playing the customer role - under any reasonably close legal scrutiny the contract could fail just on the basis that this consumer of heat was not independent enough from Rossi to qualify as a real "customer". IH would just state that they were not aware of the extent of the relationship existing between Rossi and the "customer" and that, in view of this relationship, the party named in the customer role of the contract could obviously not be that. In fact IH, did just that.

This is contract law and all it takes for the whole agreement to not be binding is a simple failure to meet strict definitions of the various roles. Maybe Rossi simply didn't have the best legal advice wrt this particular aspect of the contract.

So, are we reaching the point where it is asserted that the large volume of Doral "hot water" is used, probably with strong base, in a leaching operation to remove aluminum from a nickel/aluminum and perhaps other metal alloy matrix? This is the classical approach to making nickel catalysts, in particular Raney nickel.

If that happened to be the case, then I would suggest that the effluent from the process would be reportable as hazardous. However, good process chemistry would probably precipitate nearly all of the aluminum hydroxide (cooling and acidification), dehydrate it by drying as far as possible (more use for low grade heat) and recover the aluminum hydroxide for other industrial applications (many commercial uses).