I have also heard from eye witnesses, and I know there is no ventilation equipment or any other means to remove 1 MW of heat.
So your witnesses know there is no ventilation. But do they know whether there **was** no ventilation? Ever? For the entire one year period of the test? Who are your witnesses?
To remove it, you cannot not use invisible chimneys and magic insulation...
Agreed. But that is not what is being suggested. The suggestion is that a visible chimney and ordinary insulation could be used. You say impossible because not in the limited number of photographs with limited views taken by IH at indeterminate times. Fine, we wait.
magic insulation,
Nothing magic about isocyanurate. It's found in almost every new build house (in Europe). It's cheap(ish) and it's properties are well known. A US brand name is 'EnergyGuard'. We know it as 'Celotex' or 'Kingspan board'
You misunderstand. Kilns come in all sizes. Small ones the size of a refrigerator consumes a kilowatt or so, I think.
I agree with you about this sentence (although I do understand these things!), but if we take your previous post about wood kilns to its logical conclusion, it suggests we could pump 1MW into a fridge sized version, and dry lots more wood really quickly...
Which would work, but it wouldn't be suitable as a building material. Might work fine on a BBQ though...
Kilning wood is a slow process. The slower the better, otherwise it immediately cracks. Or just warps after a few years of use. (Hence why there is demand for air dried timber, despite it being more expensive).
To keep things slow, the heat intensity has to be kept low... That's why the 1MW kiln in your photo is so large...
The "Rossi Effect" is not on trial in this case. What is "the 1 MW plant" that would be tested independently by "serious entities"? And how would the function of that plant relate to the actual performance of the plant(s) in Doral?
The primary question in Rossi v. Darden is not whether or not the plant "worked"! . . .
There is a fog around all this that confuses many. If the Doral plant actually worked as claimed, which looks quite unlikely (starting with the warehouse-calorimeter appearance), Rossi still, it seems likely, did not show IH how to make devices that worked when independently tested (by them, which is what counts for them!). If he does show that IP to someone else, how would this remedy the failure with IH?
Correct. The failure to transfer the IP is the main issue, I think. Just having a working cold fusion device somewhere does not help I.H. Or anyone else, for that matter. We've had lots of them, and look where we are.
If Rossi actually has that proof, IH would hasten to accommodate him! -- or they would waive the test and just give him the effing money, which they could, at this point, with proof they can show investors, easily raise.
I am sure they would give him the effing money. Especially if he dropped the lawsuit in return. They would want a clear path to raising money, and no dispute over their ownership of the IP, so they would pay up. I think so because that makes business sense, and also because they told me they would pay if the thing worked, even now.
Remember that Rossi filed suit against them, not the other way around. I.H. was not looking for a fight.
A totally independent replication or even irrefutable demonstration would have zero effect on Rossi v. Darden. I think Alan doesn't read what I write, which is his sovereign privilege, but if he doesn't understand this, he does not understand the case.
I usually skim through what you write, it is my duty as an annoying moderator. However, amazingly enough I don't rely on you for legal opinions, any more than you rely on me for my excellent cake recipes. Perhaps my sources are better than yours - but whatever, your trust or otherwise in my judgement is probably of very little interest to anybody but you. But thank you for letting me know, I will avoid giving you horse-racing tips in the future.
I agree with you about this sentence (although I do understand these things!), but if we take your previous post about wood kilns to its logical conclusion, it suggests we could pump 1MW into a fridge sized version, and dry lots more wood really quickly...
Nope. It would not dry any quicker than it would with a flow of 1 kW of heat. The heat would just come right out again. The temperature would be no higher than 102 deg C no matter what you do, thanks to the Second Law, so you would not dry anything any faster than with lower power. You would just be wasting 999 kW. This would be like turning on a large industrial baking oven to bake a single loaf of bread.
The point is not that that wood kilns are inherently large, although they are larger per watt than kilns for plastic or pottery. The point is that a wood kiln that makes use of 1 MW of heat has to be large, or the heat is wasted.
kWh/h DOES appear to be widely used in Europe ... particularly in the power generation field.
eg no.wikipedia.org/wiki/KWh/h (ggogle-translated)
kWh / h , or more commonly MWh / h , can be perceived as an anomaly , but is a term used by power producers to describe produced electric energy per hour, or "time effect". Similarly kilowatt (kW) expressing the energy produced per second, or "second impact" .
I cited that no.wiki page. ("perceived as an anomaly" is pointing out what I pointed out.) I acknowledged the occasional use by power utilities. I researched the issue. This was all covered in depth.
QuoteA graphic representation of the effect (instant production) to a power plant will have very rapid variations and will be hard to read. In a similar graph of MWh / h will be more able to see that the power requirement increases sharply in the morning hours and then fall slightly out of date forward to a new peak towards the afternoon.
"Instant production" with AC would be ridiculous. If it is 50 or 60 cycle power, the power would vary that many times per second. No, what is plotted and shown is average power. KWh/h is average power, but it is a rate of energy transfer. KW is the same rate of energy transfer. If I plot kWh/h on an expanded time scale, it will vary the same as kW. Those power usage plots are averaged over some period. it might be by the hour, in which case it is literally kWh/h.
kWh/h is used sometimes because of the process the calculation has gone through. Power meters accumulate kWh. So if we want to express power consumption over some period, we divide by the time. We get average power for that time, and the units of average power are the units of power.
The problem with Rossi's comments was not that he used kWh/h, but that he denied that kW would be correct, he denied, essentially, that h/h equals 1. And then, saying more, he confused other issues, and the one that really struck me was his figure of 3526 kjoules per kWh. That betrayed a lack of clear, fundamental understanding. It is not some weird arbitrary number, it is simply the number of seconds in an hour, which is easy to know. Personally, I think ("60x60").
Rossi was not, if I am correct, formally trained in physics. he's self-taught. His knowledge has huge gaps in it. According to Mats Lewan, he had great difficulty understanding why his meters were not correctly reading input power, in the Hydro Fusion demonstration. He is not trained as a scientist. If I take him straight, he had difficulty understanding why control experiments were desirable.
Agreed. But that is not what is being suggested. The suggestion is that a visible chimney and ordinary insulation could be used. You say impossible because not in the limited number of photographs with limited views taken by IH at indeterminate times.
No, I say it is impossible because if there were a chimney or ventilation equipment, Rossi's lawyers would object to the photos posted in the lawsuit paperwork by I.H. They would post different photos.
Also because I know for a fact there is no chimney or ventilation equipment, and there never was any. Just that ordinary vent and the broken fan, which was readily visible to all visitors. Everyone who so much as glanced up saw irrefutable proof that there could not be 1 MW of heat from the machine. They pointed this out to Rossi. There was considerable controversy the whole time, for this and for other reasons.
Nope. It would not dry any quicker than it would with a flow of 1 kW of heat. The heat would just come right out again. The temperature would be no higher than 102 deg C
True... If the kiln uses steam to transfer heat (Which a lot apparently do) I hadn't thought of that, assuming they worked more like a traditional kiln.
Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
Were you the one who suggested the two 'h's cancel out in kWh/h? Isn't that the "stupidity" that Rossi was responding to? I had no idea that it was possibly you until reading your comment above.
I've practically written a book on this (much of it on newvortex). Yes, I'm sure it was me. The timing was perfect for that. Yes, the two h's cancel, and, in fact, the source that Rossi cites as a place to read about power and energy, says the same thing. kWh/h as a unit of power is not "wrong," just, as I wrote, a Rossi trope -- which means an idiosyncratic expression, to some degree or other. "Trope" does not mean "wrong." I believe that on lenr-forum I covered the history of the comments. Rossi went on and on about this, with many possible socks feeding him more opportunities to comment (and possibly some sincere comments).
So your witnesses know there is no ventilation. But do they know whether there **was** no ventilation? Ever? For the entire one year period of the test?
They were there many times during the test, for days at a time. What are you suggesting? That there was ventilation equipment, but Rossi removed it on days when people visited, and then put it back? This makes no sense because:
1. If the ventilation equipment was removed or turned off while the visitors were there, the inside of the warehouse would quickly approach 100 deg C. The people inside would all die from the heat. The doors were often closed.
2. Equipment large enough to remove 1 MW is large. You need 2 or 3 roof vents the size of people, that require a crane to install. The hoods are the size of automobiles. You can't just pull this out and hide it in a few hours.
3. There is no conceivable reason why Rossi or the pretend people at JM ("Matthew") would want to hide the heat, or take steps to hide it. On the contrary, Rossi would show the visitors the ventilation, because it would prove he is right.
4. If there were any ventilation equipment, Rossi's lawyers would make haste to provide photos of it, as I said.
Who are your witnesses?
If I meant to say that, I would have said it. Not Rossi himself, if that's what you are thinking. I wouldn't trust him. I do have his data, but I think some of it is fabricated, such as the pressure. See Exhibit 5.
True... If the kiln uses steam to transfer heat (Which a lot apparently do)
This one would have to use steam, because that is what Rossi's reactor produces. That is what he sends to the customer site. (Actually, I think it is hot water, or a mixture of steam and hot water, but the principle is the same. Heat transfer with hot fluid, as opposed to combustion or electric heating.)
If the measurements are wrong, then the whole year was a waste of time.
The year was a waste of time whether the measurements were correct or not! This is the insanity of that "GPT." It was an extremely expensive and ultimately counterproductive waste of time.
If Rossi has no technology, this was a last-ditch effort to extract more money from IH. But let's assume he has a technology. Let's assume that IH was really dumb and their so-called experts did not know how to test devices the "correct way." The Rossi way.
So, being faced with a dumb licensee in the U.S., instead of attempting to bully them into paying him, could he not have gone to Sweden and created a power installation there, selling power to a heating co-op or the like? Real power, which they would measure and pay him for? Or Hydro Fusion if he did it through them? He could have set up his manufacturing in Sweden a year earlier. He would not be wasting his time and money on a lawsuit that, for technical reasons or nothing else (which boil down to Rossi not taking care of paperwork), isn't going to generate revenue for him but simply absorb wealth in legal fees and that risks a very expensive judgment (he could lose everything, even if he has a real technology!).
If he has a real technology, it could already be at market. He claimed to have a product ready for sale in 2011, the 1 MW E-cat. Did he? If he did, where are the successful and accepted and revenue-generating power installations? He was tied up in the U.S. for a year by the Agreement, his obligation to support IH. That expired long ago. WTF has he been doing?
QuarkX. Feeding his fans more promises and Jam tomorrow.
Shane D. wrote:
I am so over being blocked.
Hah! I'll show you! Blocked.
Edit: unblocked. There! Let that be a lesson to you! A shot across the bow.
That moment of confusion, that parking space that someone zipped into just before you, that moment of frustration in this or that, heh! Or bwaahaahaaahaaahaa may be more appropriate.
I did not leave the block in place long enough to attract the dread Chinese spam, but next time, watch out! I have my methods.
It wouldn't be a very efficient device if it was running based on heat but also let the heat escape through the walls.
imagine a kiln a water boiler or even your oven at home had no wall insulation. Its probably not recommended but as a lad I used to sit on the lids of my parents old Aga in the winter after long day collecting fire wood. I didn't cook my back side doing it though. Fortunately ;).
based on the recycled water temperature oI imagine a chemical bath of some kind or something maintained at a little above 60 degrees C
Waste heat by it self would be inefficient and should be insulated with materials with as low R or U values as possible. What applies to the roof of the building if insulated also applies to the walls and roof if any of the device. I understand typical U values of insulated walls and ceilings are small fractions of a W/m2/K
I suppose we know the Sq m of the surface of the device. If we assume it is 60 deC inside and 30 deg out side and a rather high value for the U value of 0.20 W/m2/K. It should be possible to estimate the amount t of heat that can leak throug the walls of the device. I suspect it is quite low it certainly would not cook any one. The additional thermal energy clearly goes else where not throughthe walls of the device.
Waste heat would be in the form of final product temperatures or the temperatures of waste materials such as processed chemicals or some thing that could not be efficiently recovered also at 60 degrees. I imagine what energy did not get used for endothermic processes operating at about 60 degrees C or above would go into the final temperature of the product or waste materials before cooling.
I suppose Those processed materials could ether be safe waste that can be dumped in drainage or more likely cooled from 60 degrees to ambient temperature before storing. I suppose this cooling would require a second heat exchanger to dump the heat that could not be usefully recovered Into an external water supply that was either drained or cooled outside the building from 60 degrees to to ambient before recirculating.
Ideally though I suppose the waste heat would be used to heat the source materials for the product before use. To increase efficiency even further.
I wonder if vapourisation of Methyl acetate, that vapourises at 56.9 deg C or some other similar acetate or formate. Could be important In the process. Perhaps in some kind of recycling process to convert it back to it to methanol and acetic acid with reactions with acids and basis such as Sodium hydroxide?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_acetate
https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chris/MTT.pdf
i suppose the the latent heat of vapourisation of methyl acetate could be a significant factor in absorbing heat.
i suppose the the acetic acid and methanol could be used chemically else where in the process
There are many industrial uses for acetic acid for example perhaps the acetic acid was used to make palladium acetate for example from palladium sponge that could then be usedo make Paladium nano wires or other thin film structures.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium(II)_acetate
I wonder if platinum acetate and nickel acetate can be processed in similar ways.
of course the ideal efficient closed loop would be if the methanol was used towards the end of the process to regenerate themethyle acetate. And the energy was consumed in producing the product. But I'm not sure if there is a process for that step as well.
I'm not sure what quantities of materials would be involved, if any waste materials are safe to vent or drain or if any of those processes are exothermicor endothermic. But I suppose the vaporization would atleast absorb some of the heat.
You often mention there was no chimney and no ventilation. These pictures taken inside the Doral warehouse do show a chimney- even if it is not an adequate one. The point is that Rossi was not lying when he said one was there. The other photograph shows the large recirculation fans (not extractors) above the customer area. These are presumably there to keep it warm.
zeus46 wrote:
Quite sure. The photos show no chimney. If there were a chimney, Rossi's lawyer would object to those photos.
Logic based on what Rossi's lawyer has not done, given how much they have not done, is not solidly founded. Rossi has essentially not responded to the IH Answers, other than with technical motions to strike. I have begun analyzing the latest. Even where a simple affirmation might clear up a legal issue, Rossi has not made it (When was Leonardo New Hampshire merged to Leonardo Florida?)
However, it is highly likely at this point that there was no major chimney.
Quotezeus46 wrote:
That is wrong. He was an employee, and he evaluated the test a year before the suit was filed, and found many problems. Many other people found problems. I.H. was not expecting to be sued when he wrote Exhibit 5, as far as I know. It was not a defense. Those are technical questions, not legal ones.
zeus46 is a noise generator. Murray was an IH employee (or contractor, the difference is not significant here), and was hired or retained by July, 2015, when Rossi refused admittance to him. Anyone "IH" might have an IH-protective motive. So what? Testimony is testimony. Fanatics are always looking for what is largely invisible and unverifiable, like motive.
The questions were, indeed, technical. Murray was, in writing Exhibit 5, aware of possible legal controversy and attempted to set that aside. Penon stonewalled him, and it is that stonewalling that is the point, not that Murray's questions were "correct" or not. Murray states facts in those questions. I'll assume the facts are correct. I.e., he saw rust marks on the flow meter static vanes. The conclusion from that is something else.
I do not know if IH anticipated the suit. I do somewhat assume that Rossi threatened to sue. It is obvious that the good-faith relationship was toast by February.
Sorry, I missed the fact that Murray's employment contract was also included in the court documents. 
zeus46 is a noise generator
And Lomax is a pompous fool who believes he "learns by writing", rather than reading.
He also demonstrably lacks critical thinking skills, as evidenced by his self-chosen name, which literally translates from arabic as "A Slave of God". No doubt chosen due to a belief in the truth of writings by an old middle-eastern prophet, who claimed to have heard the voice of God.
So I feel it is most hypocritical that attacks those such as Peter Gluck, who chose to believe the claims of Rossi, or the claims of anyone else, for that matter.
JedRothwell wrote:
So your witnesses know there is no ventilation. But do they know whether there **was** no ventilation? Ever? For the entire one year period of the test? Who are your witnesses?
So, the warehouse temperature was only fatal on some days? Great! It reduces the mortality rate. How do we know that Rossi et al were not wearing refrigerator space-suits on the hot days? Huh? Answer me that!
This is so much grasping at straws, making up totally stupid arguments, that it's close to trolling.
This is obvious: there is a problem. It's not going to go away because of jawboning here. If Rossi does not find a way to move around this problem, his possibility of prevailing on a claim that there was a megawatt of heat being delivered is practically zero. Planet Rossi creating a series of possible solutions isn't going to help. Rossi's mumbling vagueness isn't going to help. What was the reality? I can understand if Rossi cannot tell us now, and, in fact, the wonder is that he answered any questions on this at all. Rossi doesn't seem to get it when his attorney tells him to keep his mouth shut.
Rossi v. Darden is teetering on the edge of a successful Motion for Judgment. I haven't examined the deadline situation, but the next Motion will be, I'd predict, targeted clearly, and devastating. Unless Rossi really handles what will be necessary.
(At this point, that Motion would not be based on the heat dissipation problem. It will be about the conditions for a GPT.)
It's normal for warehouses to have circulating fans to prevent stratification.
