Industrial Heat to Organize ICCF21 in Raleigh, NC

  • Of course if there is video evidence of equipment, manufacturing taking place, and James A. Bass performing some kind of work then the whole situation becomes much more complicate


    MrSS,


    That would definitely make things interesting. Even if he does though provide all that, Rossi has a steep uphill climb just from the limited evidence so far provided by IH. From the evidence IH has provided, Rossi appears to have done some pretty slick things. Several of which individually would be grounds for getting his case tossed, while keeping IH's counter-suit intact.


    That is not to say I would not welcome him having something legitimate to defend himself with, as that would suggest there may be something there. Doubtful though from what I see. Even were he to offer some reasonable explanation for his deceitful words, and actions leading up to the "GPT", there is almost no chance the 350 day test satisfied the contracts minimally acceptable COP of 4. Nor will it ever be deemed anything of scientific value.

  • That would definitely make things interesting. Even if he does though provide all that, Rossi has a steep uphill climb just from the limited evidence so far provided by IH.


    May be you remind the Stanly Kubrik moon landing fake, - he had to shoot for NASA/US-government -, they wanted to use in a case of failure (The idiots later used one photo of the Kubrik fake scene in the final report...) .


    What if Rossi presents fake videos recorded in advance??

  • first I doubt that IH will loose the suit.


    However, if it does, I would think that it would just declare bankruptcy. I doubt that it has many assets at this time since their investors apparently have not put much money into IH directly. I am not sure if the holding company items would be accessible by Rossi since it does not appear that they are responsible for IH's liabilities. I would think that it would be structured that way.


    My guess is that Rossi would get very little even if he won. Perhaps not much more than his old shipping container. I do not understand his legal stratagem since it looks like he is just loosing money to the lawyers.

  • Just a point about the outcome of the judgement.
    It would be fantastic for Industrial heat, Rossi, Brillouin, LENR-Invest, LFH, and all of us if Rossi win the trial.
    It would even be fantastic if IH was denied a license on E-cat technology, and have to pay 500M$ as damages to Rossi.


    Why ?
    Because this mean E-cat is real and proven.
    This mean that LENR have an industrial potential, and that research have a great potential.
    A space will be created for LENR.
    Money will flow to projects.


    Competitors will be funded, Industrial Heat, Brillouin, and all of the LENR teams...


    I'm just not convinced it may happen that way. ;( I hope I'm wrong, but before all I want all of that to end. :cursing:

  • Alain - The case is not about if LENR is real or not, it is about if the testing was 1) the GPT, 2) significant COP, 3) the testing was verified by the data taken by the ERV, 4) if Rossi transferred workable IP, and so on.


    I think that LENR is a real effect but that what Rossi claims is incorrect.


    I spent 2 years trying to get H2 and Ni to work based on Rossi's patent filings and videos (even to the extent of closely examining his old lab videos to get the Vale 255 nickel shown in his lab and Ni from Milan) and got nothing of merit.


    It is better for truth to prevail and research be directed towards the real effects.

  • MrSS wrote:

    If there was no manufacturing equipment and James A. Bass never performed any real work producing a chemical product, then IH should -- according to my very limited understanding of the law -- get the case against them dismissed all together.


    Well it certainly looks bad for Rossi but the argument is nothing directly to do with the customer, it is as I understand it to do with:


    (1) Does the GPT contract hold - and if so which version
    (2) Was this test the GPT
    (3) and if so, did it fairly achieve the performance benchmark for IH to be contractually bound to pay


    The matter of no customer relates rather to IH's counter-suit against Rossi that he engaged in fraud etc. now, if there was no customer, far from being thrown out, that might run. But the case against IH really has nothing to do with the customer, which is a Rossi "magnificence" and neither here nor there.


    EDIT: and spot on oldguy, this case is nothing to do with "does LENR work". I reckon both Rossi and IH would say that it does, though maybe with very different levels of caution.

  • I do not understand his legal stratagem since it looks like he is just loosing money to the lawyers.


    Nobody really knows. Some possibilities: Theater. Self-deception. Hope of extracting a large settlement from IH. Hope of getting out of IH's contract without having to reimburse them for their expenses. Buying time while Rossi courts other investors. Buying time while he figures out how to get the E-Cat to work.


    Your question is central to this whole drama. It's one of the things that makes it so fascinating.

  • Wyttenbach:

    Quote

    May be you remind the Stanly Kubrik moon landing fake, - he had to shoot for NASA/US-government -, they wanted to use in a case of failure (The idiots later used one photo of the Kubrik fake scene in the final report...) .What if Rossi presents fake videos recorded in advance??


    Uhhun... except that the whole story is bullshit. Stanley Kubrick never did that and NASA never intended that. Oh my God! You fall for the dumbest stories. Why not check them with Snopes before making a fool of yourself?


    http://www.snopes.com/false-st…rick-faked-moon-landings/
    Rossi will never be able to prove that any version of the ecat works. In the improbable event that a judgement of $89M is decided against IH, you can bet they will appeal. But I doubt that any court or jury would be that stupid, especially since IH's case will be presented by brilliant lawyers (Jones Day firm) and of course, prestigious experts if it ever gets to court. Rossi will be crushed like the cockroach that he is.

  • Quote from MrSS: “If there was no manufacturing equipment and James A. Bass never performed any real work producing a chemical product, then IH should -- according to my very limited understanding of the law -- get the case against them dismissed all…


    Even if the court determined this to be the GPT and it is determined that excess heat was produced, if there was never *any* manufacturing taking place whatsoever, no connection whatsoever with Johnson Matthey, and James A. Bass was simply an actor, then Rossi would have FRAUDULENTLY convinced Industrial Heat to let the test begin. This might be enough to get the case dismissed.


    For example, imagine if an investor desired to have a deal with a pharmaceutical company that wanted to test out a machine that could create 1000 units of drug "X" a day. However, the investor wanted the test the machine in their lab. The pharmaceutical company then claims, "No, I have a better idea. Let's test the machine next to this huge building over here. It doesn't look like it from the outside, but it is really a hospital with a thousand patients that can be cured by the drug. By curing so many people, having the test next to the hospital makes much better sense! We could get their attention and every hospital in the nation could want one of our machines!"


    The investor decides to let the test begin. However, although they are not watching twenty four hours a day and there could have been a few patients sneaking in and out, there are no vehicles coming to and from the hospital. After the test is complete, the pharmaceutical company manages to prove they made "X" units of the drug. However, the investor then goes into the building and sees it was never a hospital: there are auto parts from wall to wall.


    Even if the machine worked, should the pharmaceutical company get paid if there was never a hospital?


    Now, I want to say, for the record, I HIGHLY expect that there was some degree of manufacturing taking place at Doral and that Andrea Rossi will produce evidence of that. However, if I'm wrong and there was never even the intention of having any manufacturing take place EVEN FOR A SINGLE DAY then the whole case should be thrown out even if Andrea proves the plant produced a high COP.

  • I think he is holding back his best evidence -- whatever it might be -- until the very end.


    Why? What would be the point? He is probably spending hundreds of thousands in legal fees now. If he were to reveal this "best evidence" not only would he be free to stop spending, but I.H. would probably soon pay him the $89 million.


    Your speculation makes no sense. Holding back the best evidence would be a lunatic thing to do. Lunatic, even by Rossi's standards. I do not think you can come up with a plausible reason to do this.

  • Mary - yes. It seems clear that Rossi did NOT transfer the IP/ technology back in 2013 or we would be seeing them developing and using it. He was obligated by the contract to do so.



    Oh by the way, any relation to Mark Yugo that did CF work way back that first few years?

  • I think that LENR is a real effect but that what Rossi claims is incorrect.



    Yest, but today only people who analyse LENR science can accept LENR is real, and most of them will not be convinced it can be industrial quickly as Rossi says.

    • If Rossi win his case, by proving a real energy production was done, everybody will win, and paying half a bilion will be cheap for IH, even without E-cat in hand. Even if nobody can replicate LENR but Rossi, people will exploit Rossi's LENR which will be good.
    • A catastrophic outcome will be a technical win, with nothing proven, neither E-cat works for sure, nor Rossi blamed for sure... Same player shoot again.
    • A safe outcome is Rossi ridiculed, IH winning but without any cash available, back to the labwork, Rossi's distraction forgotten.
  • Alain
    one alternative is that IH may win the suit and counter suit and recover the 10M then put that into "real" LENR work.
    IH does support other work and if Rossi looses (likely) then there would be resources from them and their investors that could go into those projects.


    But I am afraid that the lawyers will get most of the money.

  • Quote

    Oh by the way, any relation to Mark Yugo that did CF work way back that first few years?


    Sorry, it's a pseudonym. I got tired of reading some old crone on a whackjob web site for psychics saying "You Go Girl!" at the dumbest things. That's how I chose Yugo. It's also arguably the worst car ever made.

  • Now, I want to say, for the record, I HIGHLY expect that there was some degree of manufacturing taking place at Doral and that Andrea Rossi will produce evidence of that.


    You have no rational or factual basis for this high expectation. You cannot point to any evidence to support your belief. It is only wishful thinking. Several people visited Rossi. None of them saw any evidence of activity in the customer site. There were no people there, no noise or activity, no sign of products being shipped in or out.


    If there was any evidence that the business is real, surely Rossi would have revealed it by now. Why would he hold back when it is costing him hundreds of thousands to pursue the lawsuit? He could win the lawsuit in a week if he revealed the evidence that you HIGHLY expect must exist.

  • remember that Rossi filed to disallow any videos, pictures etc taken after the "test". Although it is not clear what date he is using for the agreed start date. it does not matter what may be produced after Feb.


    Also, Rossi would be a fool to have strong evidence that makes a "slam dunk" and not use it early. If he could have a easy win, why pay the lawyers all this time?

  • I think he is holding back his best evidence -- whatever it might be -- until the very end. If he can simply retain his IP that could be of a hundred or thousand times the value of his legal costs.


    He hadn't "lost" his IP. He had, under the agreement with IH, half the planet to reap profits from. If he had played it straight with IH (and, of course, if the Rossi effect is real and practical and he had actually harnessed it), he would have gotten $100 million from the other half, and yes, investors quite sanely make trade-offs like that, even though the world market could be worth a trillion dollars. If.


    Rossi just asked for and received up to two weeks delay in Answering. That gives December 14, as a more solid deadline for more of an outline of Rossi's position. He might well conceal his "Wabbit" from us, but if he conceals it from IH, in discovery, he could be sanctioned, he could lose on that basis alone.

  • He could win the lawsuit in a week if he revealed the evidence that you HIGHLY expect must exist.


    Well, no.


    I attempt to look at the case from all sides. The following is a scenario, I invent to explain Rossi's behavior, as being how he might be thinking. I am not proposing it as fact, only as a way of seeing the situation from what might possibly be his perspective, or that might reflect some aspect of it. The situation by 2014 was that IH was showing failure to confirm his results. They may have begun questioning the Lugano results. Ross's known reaction to anyone claiming that the heat results were not correct: he decides they cannot be trusted, they are snakes, out to stop, steal his technology. So, by this time, he did not trust IH. He wanted out of the agreement. He was not about to show them his secrets, and congratulated himself for his magnificant foresight in not giving them everything.


    But perhaps he could still get more money from them. Perhaps he believed that their failure to confirm was a pretense. he could force the issue if he set up a GPT in Florida. I have elsewhere explained how he and Johnson might have intended to set up a commercial operation, but it didn't work out. Now, for a more extreme story, that has the plant actually generating a megawatt -- or Rossi thinks so, there actually was some manufacturing operation going on, but it involved platinum sponge, a very high-value product that could practically be carried out the front door in someone's pocket, or at least close, there could be UPS deliveries and pickup. They didn't really need a megawatt, perhaps the the JMP invoice requests were based on "available power," not "delivered power." But the set up was not fraudulent, in intself.


    Does that mean that IH would have to pay? No. Unless there was explicit consent for that installation as the GPT, the conditions of the Agreement were not met.


    But suppose somehow Darden did consent? (Or wrote something that looks like that.) Would that mean that they had to pay? Maybe. But this would not triple damages for fraud. They had a plausible reason for not paying (most notably the apparent IP transfer, and, remember, in this particualr scenario that failure was deliberate). Regardless, they could not pay, because without certain conditions being set up, they could not raise the moeny, and not anticipating conditions that cause payment failure is not fraud. Rossi has claimed they deceived him, claiming that Cherokee would guarantee the payment. That is legally preposterous, given he explicit Agreement. *Even if they said something like that.* This is why Agreements have an "entirety of the agreement" clause, to avoid later claims like that.


    That Rossi will be awarded $89 million is very unlikely, but at least remotely possible under some conditions. That he would succeed in hanging the liability on Cherokee is much more difficult. That he would be able to pierce the corporate veil based solely on non-payment is also extremely difficult. So if he succeeds with the $89 million, he still ends up with a mouthful of hair. IH might not even have enough assets to pay Rossi his attorney fees, if awarded.


    Remember, that's IH. Not Darden or Vaugh or any of the other investors, and not IHHI, where the Woodford investment went. They have money and they can get more if needed. For $89 million, they would cheerfully flush Industrial Heat -- but they might bid on the assets in a bankruptcy sale. Including the name.


    Rossi, if he was dealing with a possible LENR technology, needed the best legal advice available, and it looks like he didn't get it, even though he surely could have afforded it.


    (However, a major alternate scenario would explain that. He didn't get and follow that advice because it was all fraud from the get-go, and he believed that IH would cave if sued, they would not want the publicity. Nor, of course, would Woodford. I think Rossi misjudged them all.)

  • I don't know why any of that matters. Rossi was contracted to teach IH how to produce working and sellable ecats. He never did. Contract broken. end of argument.



    Every once in a while MY gets it right. Here he reduces everything down to it's essentials. A rarity for him. Contractually...and that is what this is mostly about, I have little doubt IH wins handily, as they should.


    That leaves the issue of whether, or not, the Ecat works at all. Totally separate matter to be discussed IMO. That is still open for debate. I think though, for starters, we can all admit that if it does work, it is not at the COP, or reliability Rossi has claimed.