LENR in architecture

    Quote from axil

    you have often remarked that Rossi is crazy, unpredictable, wacky, bizarre, idiosyncratic, moody...could his unusual and unhinged condition have been produced by chronic exposure to ionization of the brain?


    No. People who have known him for a long time say he was like that even before he got into cold fusion, so that is not the cause of it. The 1-year test could not have produced any deleterious exposure because it was fake. There was no excess heat, and no cold fusion reaction. It is not clear whether he produced an anomalous reaction in any other test. They might all be fake.


    I think most of his crazy behavior is an act, to help him defraud people. Like the mafia boss Vincent Gigante who "feigned insanity in an effort to throw law enforcement off his trail."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Gigante

    Quote from JedRothwell


    No. People who have known him for a long time say he was like that even before he got into cold fusion, so that is not the cause of it. The 1-year test could not have produced any deleterious exposure because it was fake. There was no excess heat, and no cold fusion reaction. It is not clear whether he produced an anomalous reaction in any other test. They might all be fake.


    I think most of his crazy behavior is an act, to help him defraud people. Like the mafia boss Vincent Gigante who "feigned insanity in an effort to throw law enforcement off his trail."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Gigante


    Rossi has devised a system that abbreviates incessantly used phrases that he repeats constantly, almost in every post. This labor saving system fits your style of writing, the things you say and the thrust of your thinking to a Tee. Rossi uses F9 and F8. You might try to use J and a number. This system would save both you and any forum members that still read your posts much time.


    Actually not edited. But I thought about it. Alan.

    • Official Post

    Question on safety may be the occasion to discuss architecture.
    Today the house boiler, using gas oil or heavy oil are put in the basement because the tank is in the ground, or in the basement, and because the fuel is smelly.
    The big gas boilers initially were put in the basement because they were consuming air, and that in the rooms it was requiring big air circulation at the risk of killing people.
    smaller water boilers were ok but requiring hole in the windows or in the wall.
    One big problem is the chimney to evacuate hot gases.
    Recent consensation gas boiler produce very cool exhaust (below 80C, practicaly I can put my hand at the exhaust of my boiler), that requires not classical chimney (yet it requires you re-pipe the chimney with stainless pipes because exhaust is very acid). My boiler exhaust is just 20cm from the ground producing steam and CO2 that you notice only by cloud in winter and some breathing difficulties for asthamatic people like me when inside the cloud. In fact you can put your condensation boiler in the room, with only lost space and aesthetic drawback.
    Electric heating is practical as it requires no air circulation, except for hygiena... a recent problem indeed is air contamination in very tight and insulated houses or flat.


    what about LENR ?
    There is no risk of toxic gas (CO) in a basement or room, there is no requirement of chimney, except maybe as waste heat exhaust...
    maybe the old chimney in existing building may be used as waste heat exhaust for LENR electric generators (not CHP only).
    there is no need to put is in the basement, but it can.
    you can also think about putting it in the roof as it is light, but the question is about water circuit in that situation.
    You can put it in the rooms, in devices, with only question about waste heat.


    For washing machine, waste heat is as usual.
    For space heater no change.
    for electric devices exploiting a LENr electric generator, waste heat is a problem, but just multiplying the waste heat of the usual electric device (a TV produce waste heat for all it's power used) by the inverse of generator efficiency (eg: if TV LENR generator produce 200We for 1kWth LENR (20% efficiency), waste heat is 1kW thus 5x time the usual 200W of a TV). One point is that it will push engineers to improve efficiency of generators to reduce waste heat.


    alternative is to continue using a home electric grid so waste heat is managed centrally, by a building CHP/generator or by a city grid.
    another is to manage waste heat in the flat centrally by a kind of air conditioning.
    about risk of radiation, if it is charged particles like muons, it can be deflected or shielded quite easily, maybe requiring some heavy installation pushing the boiler down to the basement or away in the city...
    the survival of scientists having experienced LENR for weeks , and even more the difficulties for scientists to convince particle physicist make radiation very improbable.

    Everybody that has gotten a high powered LENR reaction going has reported intense electrical and electronic interference that cannot be shielded. As the amount of LENR power generation is increased in a city, so too will the degree of electrical and electronic interference increase until all such equipment will become inoperable. Electrical and electronic equipment will not function.


    To counter the problem, a huge multi gigawatt central LENR power station sited far from any population or electrical dependent equipment should be located deep underground or underwater or maybe in space. Even in this case, the muon interference at the LENR generation site might become so intense, that the generators that produce power from heat might not function and might need to be recited far from the LENR heat source proper.


    In general without exception, any power source that is concentrated in the extreme, produces collateral downside issues. With carbon burning, too much CO2 is the issue; with LENR too many muons are the issue, with solar power, too much land use is the issue. As a rule, moderation is the best policy in this life. In every case, there exists some point of overuse and saturation where a poisoning effect begins to appear. At that point, tradeoffs must be considered.

    Quote from axil

    Everybody that has gotten a high powered LENR reaction going has reported intense electrical and electronic interference that cannot be shielded.


    That is not true. People who have seen ~100 W reactions have not seen any interference. No one has produced verified higher power than that. The claims by Rossi are probably fraud or error. For example, when the people from NASA visited, Rossi claimed he was getting high powered steam when the reactor was clogged up and nothing was coming out of it. You cannot get any more wrong than that. The power was zero but he said it was high. His 1-year test produced no excess power. Lugano probably produced no excess power, but no interference either.


    You tend to make stuff up. Even if you believe the nonsense claims of high power, the obvious mistakes and the out-and-out fraud, where did you get the idea they produce interference? Can you point to some papers claiming that?

    Quote from JedRothwell

    You tend to make stuff up. Even if you believe the nonsense claims of high power, the obvious mistakes and the out-and-out fraud, where did you get the idea they produce interference? Can you point to some papers claiming that?


    I think that Defkalion claimed heavy interference. What I noticed was that they were generating massive spark stimulation. That will create a boatload of interference, easily. It may have affected their magnetic field meter that reported a preposterously strong magnetic field that would have pulled chairs off the floor -- or the device off the table! The massive interference may also have had zilch to do with LENR.


    Recent scare speculations here completely ignore that before any LENR devices come into common use, they will be rigorously and completely tested. As far as anomalous radiation or interference, both of these would have been noticed already and would have been considered important. Researchers have looked carefully for RF emissions from LENR cells. There have been extensive searches for radiation, and mesons would have produced observable signs, that would have been considered of high importance. Pure nonsense is being promoted, in the name of what, I don't know. Probably in the name of I Know And You Don't, which seems to power some folks.

    http://www.awp.fr/projects/industrial/


    Above is a link to recent designs for industrial projects by Parisian architects AWP. They for me have begun an interesting relationship between energy and water infrastructure and the public. Their building designs attract visitors and invite people to engage with infrastructure as a context to a public or private space.


    Another such example is the better known Pompidou Centre in Paris.


    After reading through your posts, I have become aware that LENR may need to be shielded or hidden, until all is know about radiation emitted. However, I am interested both in designing a building that will function well, and safely, using LENR energy and one that expresses the technology aesthetically as well. Perhaps these will be two separate designs, one for power stations or community grids and the other for housing and/or public buildings.


    I am primarily interested in LENR as an affordable and clean form of energy that does not use up the earth's resources, and could possibly help to restore them if applied in arid climates, as research using the E-Cat suggests, https://www.ecat.tech/Research…ulture-LENR-Future-Cities. If successful it could potentially also help to resolve the housing crisis and provide an affordable solution for refugee housing.


    I think 3D printing, as suggested earlier in the thread, would be a very good way to create a building design that merges LENR technology into the building structure, rather than treating it as a completely separate installation. But the main question is whether this would be beneficial for the technology itself, for those maintaining it and for the users of buildings involved. This would be a priority for me in this project, to find a way in which architecture can AID the technology, and its users, on a functional level whilst promoting individual and social wellbeing. Secondary would be the notion of aesthetics and making the building a public attraction, in the case of a local/city generator. However when generating designs both can inform each other and inspiration can come from a variety of related sources, and so I believe the conceptual process shouldn't be too constrained or categorised in early stages to allow for creativity.


    My thoughts and interpretations from the discussion so far:


    -Waste heat-needs to be factored into the design, it can be used for greenhouses, hot baths, pools,..interestingly there has been some speculation about designing public baths and saunas in London, like in Roman times, it seems like LENR would be perfect for this! Also possibly heat recovery ventilation units could use the excess heat?


    - Autonomy, this I find very interesting, a new relationship between energy users and utilities, locally managed grids rather than national distribution companies. I would like to focus on a scheme the technology lends itself best to but without taking individual and social wellbeing out of the equation if possible!


    - Moderation, my father was an enthusiastic supporter of this, perhaps a good idea would be to integrate different renewables? Are there any that would work particularly well with LENR such as solar or wind/wave?


    -Muons, I would agree to consider various shielding options as a precaution and encourage research into radiation emitted by LENR. However it seems so far there is little evidence of any harmful emissions, I wish I could ask dad about this!


    I also have a question, when I was researching recent inventions in the field, I was under the impression Brillouin Energy has advanced the furthest, but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet I don't think. What are your opinions of these boilers? There are apparently already some housing designs underway incorporating them - http://www.truth-out.org/news/…g-edge-nuclear-technology, 'a design by David Weinkauf of Two Trees Inc.' I haven't managed to find further information on this scheme so far.


    Hope to follow with some sketches soon..

    • Official Post

    As architect you may be interested more in the possible change in structure than in details.


    On thing i see, inspired by scarcity inspired design is the possibility that the modularization of home device may change greatly.


    On thing I have seen is an integration of the kitchen sink to recycle water and save energy.
    With LENR I see the possible integration of all kitchen in an autonomous device. It may have sens if LENr reactor can be downsized smaller than a house boiler but bigger than just a stove/washingmachine/oven (cost is key factor).


    Maybe oven and stove may not be concerned as they used high power, and requires direct usage.
    However I see a logical collaboration between the kitchen sink, the dish-washing machine, the hotwater boiler, and why not some water cleaning, greywater regeneration and usage, trash treatment, and why not some integrated rice cooker and similar boiling stove, tea/cofee pot...
    One key component of thet block is a CHP generating electricity and heat for the washing machine...
    Electricity (though supercapacitors or batteries) may also feed microwave and cooking hand or bench devices (blenders...)...
    microwave may be hybrid with LENR heat too.


    Smoke extractor may also manage wasteheat evacuation, making it the best place in a flat, when there is nobasement and boiler chimney.
    Sewer may also evacuate waste heat, but this is limited.


    There is something to consider too about the fridge, integrated or separate from the kitchen-sink-oven block...
    Cooling by kitchen water may improve fridge performance and manage waste heat.


    a big problem is adaptability to the various kitchen plan, adaptation to the building.


    there is a reengineering to do.


    A similar reengineering may be considered for the bathroom, including a jakuzi (with hot water but also disinfection for recycling), beside a shower and a sink. space heating and dryer is important.
    Why not integrate a cloth-washing machine and it's dryer, with electricity and heat of a CHP exploited for hot water and water treatment.


    Toilet does not benefit much from LENR, and may rather promote oldstyle of water and sewer structure.


    basement occupation may be considered too.


    Instead of putting in the kitechn and bathroom, boiler and space heater may stay in the basement.
    storage Surgelator may stay in the basement, while the day to day surgelator may stay integrated with the fridge.
    Cloth washing machin may stay in the basement too.


    why not merge washing machine CHP+htwater with central heating boiler and CHP/generator ?
    this may have sens if the cost of a LENr generator is intermediate and promote this mild compromise...


    many engineering choice, depending of the various costs (LENR reactor, piping, wiring, surface) ...

    • Official Post

    As an Architect you should never overlook the whole energy balance of the structure. Compass orientation of both structure and glazing with respect to sunlight (and those cold N.Winds!) is very important regardless of the energy source. The whole structure -setting, build materials, internal functions of different spaces and circulation of both air and people between them, service ducting and so on should be viewed as one single and coherent 'machine for living'.


    Le Corbusier was a bit of an arse, but he did have some good ideas.

    I am very much interested in details! The way we are educated as architects is to start with a concept, and progress towards the details. In this case perhaps the process needs to consider details earlier since we are potentially reconsidering traditional forms that take appliances for granted.


    Perhaps housing is a good place to start in this case? I am also interested in sports facitlies, there is much potential there also I think for LENR for heating pools and drying outdoor surfaces.

    Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    I think that Defkalion claimed heavy interference. What I noticed was that they were generating massive spark stimulation. That will create a boatload of interference, easily.


    That is true. Glow discharge cold fusion might also cause interference. However, this is conventional physics. The interference is not caused by cold fusion per se. I do not think the Defkalion experiments produced cold fusion in any case.

    Building codes/regulations stipulate high levels of insulation, in order to reduce energy bills and CO2 production.


    If houses had a heat source that didn't suffer from these issues, it may be that using lots of modern insulation becomes unnecessary in colder environments. Larger areas of glazing could be specified, and environmentally unfriendly (I think) blown foam insulation board could be replaced with more basic materials.


    I don't envision LENR reactors providing electricity, just hot water, as it's probably more optimal to fit solar panels in most climates, when looking at cost, simplicity of device, and energy output levels.


    To supply enough LENR electricity for a household would require a fair amount of waste heat to be dealt with, and also a big battery bank or a power grid connection.


    In warmer environments, running a 5kW aircon unit from LENR electricity would not be feasible in my opinion.

    Quote from zeus46

    To supply enough LENR electricity for a household would require a fair amount of waste heat to be dealt with, and also a big battery bank or a power grid connection.


    Why would it need a big battery bank? Why not make the generator large enough to handle peak demand?


    I think first generation devices with moving parts might need a small battery bank, to reduce wear and tear on the generator and heat engine. Thermoelectric devices would not need a battery. I explained this here on p. 5:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusionb.pdf


    I do not think there will be a grid, as I explained in this paper.


    Quote from zeus46

    If houses had a heat source that didn't suffer from these issues, it may be that using lots of modern insulation becomes unnecessary in colder environments.


    The house I grew up in was built around 1890, with little insulation. In the 1970s my parents had insulation installed in many of the walls. It was much more comfortable in winter. Less drafty. For this reason, I think people will continue to insulate houses even with cold fusion.


    I have lived in Meiji era houses in Japan which have walls made of paper. I mean that literally: there is nothing between you and the outdoors but paper, or screen on a summer night, or thin pieces of wood during typhoons. The toothpaste freezes in the morning, as my mother wrote when she visited Japan. These houses are picturesque but uncomfortable. Modern Japanese people do not want to live in them. They want insulated houses, and they would even if you had cold fusion heaters as hot as the open fires these houses used to have (irori), or the kerosene stoves they use today.


    In the U.S. I have lived in a house constructed in 1790, which is unimproved, with no insulation and no running water. That gets old after a month. Most people would not like it.


    Quote from zeus46

    In warmer environments, running a 5kW aircon unit from LENR electricity would not be feasible in my opinion.


    Thermal airconditioning and refrigeration directly powered by cold fusion heat makes more sense. Gas fired thermal refrigerators used to be common. They are still sold. They last forever. In the 1980s I saw some made in the 1930s. See:


    https://www.northernpropaneproduct.com/gas-refrigerators/

    Jed, because otherwise every stage of heat production and conversion would need to be sized for peak household electricity demand, but generally used at far below that level.


    Also no-one wants their own personal steam (or CO2) turbine spinning away all day. Size and maintenance cost are two reasons. So we're left with thermoelectric power generation... Which would also require an ancillary cooling circuit, and isn't that efficient anyway (ie more waste heat at peak load).


    I just think solar panels will win overall in this situation. (And let's not even get into comparing LENR to solar-thermal... It could be a stiff competition).


    However, I might change my mind after I've found the time to read your link properly...


    PS 'draughtiness' does contribute (positively and negatively) to a feeling of comfort, but new buildings don't rely on insulation to control it.


    PPS maybe a paper walled house would be comfortable with always-on underfloor heating?

    Quote from zeus46

    Also no-one wants their own personal steam (or CO2) turbine spinning away all day. Size and maintenance cost are two reasons.


    Small, gas-fired home-sized turbines have already been developed. Look up "microturbines." They use air bearings and other techniques to reduce noise, wear and tear. Capstone and others developed them, but they have not found a ready market because they are not cost effective. They would be cost effective with cold fusion, needless to say.


    I think Capstone is now concentrating on larger devices, but they have a 30 kW unit:


    https://www.capstoneturbine.com/products/c30


    It says: "Compatible Fuels: Natural Gas, Liquid Fuels (Kerosene, Aviation Fuels, Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel #2), Biogas (Landfill, Digester), Associated Gas, Sour Gas, Propane Gas." That's quite a range of heat sources! I expect you could add cold fusion to that list without much trouble.


    Quote from zeus46

    PPS maybe a paper walled house would be comfortable with always-on underfloor heating?"


    That is what traditional Korean houses used. I do not know whether they had paper walls. Heated stone floors were never used in Japan as far as I know. During the Edo period (1603 - 1868), the government mandated that all houses be built the same way, with large open spaces under the tatami floors. Some people suspected this was to make it easy for government agents to sneak under houses and listen in on conversations.


    The Edo period government regulated every aspect of daily life, from houses to clothing to the food that people in each social class were allowed to eat. It was a highly efficient proto-fascistic government.

    I'm sure that would work fine with LENR, but I suspect they are used where there is no grid connection, or the grid is not reliable 100% of the time.


    In the UK at least, grid connections are easy to find or extend, unless you want to live in a very remote area far in the mountains.

    Quote from zeus46

    I'm sure that would work fine with LENR, but I suspect they are used where there is no grid connection


    Read the case studies. These are used where there is a readily available low cost or zero cost source of combustion gas, such as a landfill where you have to burn the gas anyway.


    Quote from zeus46

    In the UK at least, grid connections are easy to find or extend


    I predict that 15 years after cold fusion becomes a commodity, there will be no grid. The electric power companies will all be bankrupted. See the paper I referenced for details, or my book.


    As I show in the paper, cold fusion electricity will be 200 to 1000 times cheaper than electricity from power companies. They cannot compete with that, any more than horses can compete with automobiles. When a household can save $2000 per year with cold fusion by replacing a worn-out space heater (furnace), everyone will do that as their heaters wear out. That takes about 15 years.

    • Official Post

    Load sharing in Urban areas could be done using smaller local grids - the old grid substation network is ideal for that. It's the Aluminium smelters and so on who will still need big grid back-up. I think they would relocate to be nearer a legacy national grid 'spine' network that would be shorn of many of its smaller branches - they would wither away naturally.

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