ISCMNS: 12th International Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen Loaded Metals 2017 - near Asti, Italy - 5-9 June 2017

  • It only looks like a protonic orbital. But it is a H*, a proton plus an electron in a shrunken orbit bound to 56Fe, because the chemistry still shows Iron, with some disturbance in the orbits and not 57Co.


    Continuing, inspired by Jacques Dufour's notion, and Wyttenbach's worthy critiques:


    Does it even look like one? I suspect actual nuclear protonic orbitals may be considered NO Larger than 1/1837th of any outer electronic orbital. By the muonic analogy given earlier (muon 207 times electron mass, radius of muonic orbital 1/207th that of an electron. https://doi.org/10.1134%2FS106377961102002X).


    Keeping in mind that hydrogen atoms, ions and protons with or without neutrons are unique chemically and physically, [I point out the obvious to many here, but want to keep others with the discussion.]


    By having or capturing a conduction band electron, a/an hydride / deuteride negative ion--- that is an effective H-, proton with two electrons, one or both borrowed at some electronic level from a transition metal (Fe, Pd, V, Mo, Mn, Tl etc) might find a comfortable, or confused interfacial "orbital" to at least briefly occupy, since that proton comes already shielded. Can coincindent occupation of an orbital lead to proton / deuteron fusion? Could coincident hydride / deuteride orbitals and the differing masses greatly increase the normally infinitesimal cross section for fusion? And would the conduction band (?), faraday screened, electronic milieu provide the putative gamma screening and effective thermalization??


    Note for comparison: the lifetime of the free muon ( t1/2 ~2 microseconds, https://www.sciencedaily.com/r…/2011/01/110125131450.htm)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Longview: Clarity, references, delete unneeded and likely irrelevant muon detail ().

  • Does it even look like one? I suspect actual nuclear protonic orbitals may be considered NO Larger than 1/1837th of any outer electronic orbital.


    Longview : Try once to calculate the spin-spin interaction force of a shrunken Hydrogen and a Fe nucleus. (Fe charge radius 3.7384 fm u iron at nucleus ???)


    The field of a femto Hydrogen is much stronger becaus the electron speed is close to max (c) and the field density increases with 1/r2.


    Usually such potentials turn out to be in the MeV region, but we are in a deep dark hole of physics, because there is no known exact theory that works.

    If you go to R.Mills theory, then you will also notice that at least for Deuterium there is no strong force that is holding p+n together... A lot of work to do.

  • This was an excellent conference, both in the quality of presentation and also the informal discussions. My own presentation went well enough to be headhunted for another conference.

    So, when you say it was an excellent conference, what was the achievement, what may we expect as a result from this "reunion" of like-minded buddies.


    There have been many ISCMNS and ICCF before, which were also said to have been excellent, and with "outstanding" presentations... just remember this one: http://studylib.net/doc/5778607/is-lenr-the-real-deal%3F


    However, I miss some real progress in the LENR field

    (Actually I don't see any progress at all beyond the usual unverified claims of excess heat from e.g. another type of Celani wires, or the hearsay that another car company might look into LENR etc. etc.)


    So, one could get the impression that the most exciting parts of this conferences are the "social events".


    BTW: If I would have been asked, I would have recommended to make some sight-seeing tour to one of Rossi's earlier places of activities, for instance Airuno, which is not too far away from Asti:

    http://www.lucianoravasio.eu/p…o/#lightbox%5Bgroup%5D/1/

  • Alan,


    I had hoped to hear a little more from you about the conference. If anything, maybe the scuttlebut, or rumors that fly about during the intermissions and dinners? Any truth to the SKINR rumor, about them achieving (again) excess heat? What about word from the Swedes and their Lugano replication attempts? Piantelli? And surely some talked about Rossi? Whatever juicy stuff you have...let us hear it. :)


    Other than that; anyone say how Peter Gluck is doing, and when/if he will be blogging again?

  • There was a lot of gossip, but very little about Rossi. Also had a good chat with Dewey Weaver after I (somewhat) cornered him in the bar. I told him there was no need to apologise for his more intemperate posts, because I was quite sure he never wrote them himself. But we got on ok. Fences were mended in a professional manner. For me the high-point was being invited to serve on the ISCMNS committee (envelope licker) and making some very good contacts- who will be useful in our research programme -very useful. There is a possibility of some joint venture work. As far as gossip goes...it would not be fair to pass on what people say when they are a little bit drunk, would it now?

  • Alan,


    Actually I do think "they" want their information, gossip, rumor or whatever out there. Not with their name linked to it obviously, but I do believe they realize the field has somehow retarded it's growth with this pervasive secrecy, and hope their barroom accounts somehow make it out as an "end around".


    Or if you do not buy that; LENR seems stuck in neutral, little advanced since FPs, and maybe the way to get it moving again is some good old fashioned gossip. :)

  • Or if you do not buy that; LENR seems stuck in neutral, little advanced since FPs, and maybe the way to get it moving again is some good old fashioned gossip.


    Shane D. : If I extrapolate my talks, then we are close to a solution of most theortic LENR problems. But most researchers fall quiet, when they feel beeing close to the target...

    Of course nobody will discuss (the deeper math/reasons of) his findings on this forum. Luckily for us, some researcher still publish key result, without knowing the implications for the theory veryfication process...

  • Actually I do think "they" want their information, gossip, rumor or whatever out there. Not with their name linked to it obviously, but I do believe they realize the field has somehow retarded it's growth with this pervasive secrecy, and hope their barroom accounts somehow make it out as an "end around".


    Or if you do not buy that; LENR seems stuck in neutral, little advanced since FPs, and maybe the way to get it moving again is some good old fashioned gossip.


    Shane D. I quite agree with your first thought. LFH - despite an abiding personal interest in Ni/H which represents what I think of as 'non-elitist' LENR is, as much as possible, non-aligned and neutral. We encourage the sharing of information without revealing our sources. the Assange-free 'Wikileaks' of the field. This requires patience, and finely-judged discretion, this last being the most difficult thing. As a famous actress once said to me 'I have been accused of many things, but nobody ever accused me of being discreet'. Fortunately there is something about my personality which encourages people to tell me their innermost secrets, perhaps it is because they know I will pass them on?

  • Then let me try it with tendencies of the people you talked to:


    1. LENR ist going back into the dust where it came from within the next years.


    2. The current experiments are positive and reproducable but in the milliwatt range nobody (with money) cares about - we are still at least 20 years from commercial applications.


    3. We see positive results with cheap LENR (Nickel et. al.), have multi Watt output and see the potential to scale it up. With these results we could aquire sufficient funds.


    Are you biting? :-)

  • Alan,


    You participate as a mod on LF (LENR central), and you run LFH...so yeah, I'm guessing they whisper sweet nothings in your ear because they want it out. Discretely that is. McKubre said something like "we are all keeping the same secrets from each other", and encouraged more openness. MFMP was formed in large part because of the tight lipped nature of the field, and frustration with it's lack of progress. Surely it won't hurt LENR if more insiders speak up...rumors, hopes, dreams, gossip, observations and all.


    Most of these researchers are getting up there in age also, and have nothing to lose, and everything to gain by having their experiences put in the public record. At least that way, if LENR goes back underground, or is buried, some future aspiring scientist can dig it up and build on it.

  • The current experiments are positive and reproducable but in the milliwatt range nobody (with money) cares about


    An experimental procedure reliably exhibiting milliwatts of excess heat (e.g., in a PdD system) with no commercial prospects would be very interesting. (1) Skeptical labs could run the experiment and see it with their own eyes. (2) You would be able iterate on the experiment with different controls and variables until the mechanism is isolated. Once the mechanism is known, it will be easier to assess whether you can tweak it or, without assuming that there is only one LENR mechanism, transfer it to a different set of precursors to produce commercially interesting amounts of heat.


    An NiH system that operates in the watts or perhaps kilowatts is surely more interesting commercially speaking. But a low performing experiment that is nonetheless able to serve as a lab rat would be worth the funding needed to investigate it.

  • An experimental procedure reliably exhibiting milliwatts of excess heat (e.g., in a PdD system) with no commercial prospects would be very interesting. (1) Skeptical labs could run the experiment and see it with their own eyes. (2) You would be able iterate on the experiment with different controls and variables until the mechanism is isolated


    Swartz has supposedly mastered the mW range, and said he would sell lab kits for years now. Still has not done so though. He is getting up there in age too. Be ashamed if he retired to the "LENR Old Folks Home" bringing his secrets with him, without ever having sold a single kit. Oh well, at least he can tell Alan his trade secrets at the LOFH bar...I hear they have a great happy hour. :)

  • Swartz has supposedly mastered the mW range, and said he would sell lab kits for years now.


    So I hear. The papers I've read from him are overloaded with theoretical considerations, and I have yet to see independent confirmation of his work (although I haven't specifically kept an eye out for it). So count me as skeptical.

  • Whatever you might think of Mitchell Swartz or Mike McKubre, nothing much gets past them. They could be of immense help to my own research, and as we don't care about the money side of things, that might in turn lead to helping the world. Quite enough reward for me.

  • Alan,


    There is no animus towards Swartz, and certainly not for McKubre. Instead I think there is a frustration with those like Swartz, Larsen, Piantelli and the like who have been on the LENR scene for many years, claiming to have it all figured out, yet nothing ever comes of it. At the least, those like Jet Energy predicting a product in x amount of time, that does not materialize, should at least offer an explanation as to why. Don't you think?


    I could also add BEC in there too, although they only have to answer to their investors from here on out. BrLP...well, they of all have been around in some form or another the longest (1991), promised the most and so far delivered nothing, but at least Mills gives reasons for the delay's. No one else does though.


    And what about Duncan's "Seashore LLC", and his TT venture with SKINR/ENEA? Of all, Duncan is the one we most want to hear from -good or bad, but nothing at all from him. Biberian too...who is this German firm he is partnering with to commercialize LENR? Why all these secrets.


    Like I said...no one is angry so much as frustrated with the lack of communication, and follow-up. Most of these guys/girl, look willing to take their knowhow, and knowledge to the LENR RV park up there in the great beyond.

  • Shane D.


    There is growing awareness amongst some of those in the LENR field that the years since '89 spent hanging on the coat-tails of academia and striving for respectability via peer-reviewed publication have ended in failure when measured by conventional standards. For this realisation we can thank Rossi, who whatever you think of him has raised the profile of LENR and brought in new younger workers and also new funders ( new = nothing to do with IH). For this reason alone, I think (and expect/hope) we might see some interesting developments before 2020.