IH funding many LENR research

  • Beside the C* theory of Sifferkoll, the last pages of 214-35 in Pacer Monitor

    https://drive.google.com/drive…Ktdce19-wyb1RxOTF6c2NtZkk

    contains a list of companies or researshoer IH have contact with, and fund.


    If you don't follow the Rossi's vision, this is a great document for us.

    Not only it cite reserashers funded for LENR, but also other teams of possible interest.


    • Confirmation that Bill gates have invested 6M$ with Rob Duncan at TTU
    • IH supports Mizuno/CleanPlanet in obtaining Japanese Gov grant... some confirmation of COP<2. Worki to acquire IP.
    • Indian gov having authorized LENR research
    • US Gov funding LENR modeling reserash in Navsea
    • LA Gatta /TSEM starting to work
    • Dennis Letts funded for research in progress
    • Cooper Core T)ech (?) with Dennis Cravens... on something complex, with piezzo/pyro resonance (?)...
    • It seems Miley/Lenuco closing (?)
    • Peter Hagelstein seems to have interesting, if not breakthrough , results with stainless steal and water jets... Mitchell Swartz with Nanor too.
    • Tom Claytor (known for tritium?)/High Mesa labs: partner to test material and gases for IH... Mizuno, Letts ashes to be analysed?
    • Curt Brown/Pointsource : who are they?
    • Etiam Oy : buying IP , patent soon granted?
    • JP Biberian funded to replicate Rossi (inconclusive at time they wrote), and e replication of F&P boiling experiment (ICARUS as far as I speculate).
    • Fabrice David
    • Robert Stringham... around sonoluminescence. seems to have something that work.
    • Iraj Parjmajad/Mel Miles... Zeolythe-based LENR?
    • David Fojt - MDI France with Renault(? he denies, probably misunderstanding in conference)
    • MFMP guys (Bob Higgins, M Valat) considering funding IH replication at that time...

    Latest lines are only prospective contacts, and I imagine most failed, but this tell their mood at that time.



    Why not study around those research, some quite ignored since long... Better than discussing plumbing ?

  • Irrelevant?

    I would debate this point, but I get the impression that it would be useless to do so.


    Personally, I am very much looking forward to learning the results of these real scientific investigations.

    It sure would be nice if more investigators were inclined to at least discuss their in-progress work, even if they decide to reserve disclosure of results until final analysis completion.


    I am quite happy to be able to follow the progress of Bob Higgins here - best of luck to you, Bob!

  • Countless inventors have claimed high levels of output from all sorts of exotic alleged energy production technologies. However, absolutely undeniable and practically useful results are what matter. Milliwatts from electrets with a permanent electric field pushing electrons around, tiny quantities of excess torque from magnet motors manipulating the BH curve, repetitive demonstrations of "cold electricity" making light bulbs flicker wildly, wildly shaped geometric coil windings making permanent magnets spin, flyback current bringing "dead" lead acid batteries back to life, a few stray watts of thermal power from low temperature palladium-deuterium electrolytic systems: even if they did demonstrate a "real" anomalous effect they aren't immediately useful towards solving the world's energy issues. This planet needs one or more breakthrough solutions that are capable of being implemented in the near term.


    The high powered Ni-H technology -- which me356 still allegedly promises to share openly with the replicator community at some point -- is the closest technology fitting the description of being truly paradigm shattering, industry busting, and economy shaking. We need portability, high temperatures, and power density. If me356 hasn't been making gross measurement errors or flat out lying to us, which I doubt, he may be the individual who provides the recipe that can ignite the LENR revolution.

  • That is an amazing document (214-35). Tons of money being spent based entirely on unsubstantiated claims to excess heat without one shred of consistency, competent independent replication, or anything even nearly ready to market. This is contagious folly pure and simple on a grand scale. No wonder they wanted to keep it confidential. Woodford was speculating with investor funds without proper vetting. Spending other people's money badly.

  • Milliwatts from electrets with a permanent electric field pushing electrons around, . . . even if they did demonstrate a "real" anomalous effect they aren't immediately useful towards solving the world's energy issues.

    Milliwatts would contribute little the world's energy issues, but if they were real, and reliable, they would be worth billions of dollars. The most expensive energy on earth measured per watt is milliwatts of electricity delivered by things like ear-phone batteries, pacemakers, or on a somewhat larger scale, cell phone batteries. A long-lasting replacement for these would be a gold mine. It would bring in huge sums of money, giving the inventor and the manufacturers an opportunity to scale up the effect. It seems unlikely to me that any effect works on a small scale only. If it works at all, it should be possible to scale it up, so eventually this process would work for a wide range of applications.

  • Tons of money being spent based entirely on unsubstantiated claims to excess heat without one shred of consistency, competent independent replication,

    1. I do not think they are spending tons. They are not spending enough, in my opinion.


    2. Some of those claims are unsubstantiated. Others have been widely and independently replicated by some of the most competent researchers on earth. Since you, Mary Yugo, brag about how you have read nothing about the research, and it is indeed obvious that you know nothing about it, you have no business dismissing any of these claims.


    3. Why does consistency matter? If this were 1900, it would be wise to invest in cars run by gasoline internal combustion, steam, and batteries. In the late 1960s there were 4 or 5 major computer RAM technologies being developed, quite different from one another. It made sense for IBM and others to invest in all of them. Integrated circuit transistors won out, and the others disappeared, but that outcome was not clear at the time. MRAM (magnetic RAM) still exists, it still has advantages, and it might yet make a comeback.

  • None of them have kilowatts of output power that I'm aware of.

    No one does. Rossi claimed he did, but he lied. He has nothing.


    But there is no advantage to kilowatts. A ten-watt reaction that can be controlled, turned on, and turned off, on demand would be far more valuable than an unreliable kilowatt-scale reaction. Once you learn to control a small reaction, you can scale it up as much as you like. A large scale uncontrolled reaction would be dangerous and useless for most applications.

  • What Alain's list makes very clear is that IH are putting their money where their mouth is (to the extent that they have said much in public, which they haven't) and are infusing real capital into a field that has languished. Concerns about them cornering LENR are no doubt justified on some level, but when divorced from an appreciation of the fact that IH are making real efforts in this area, such concerns come across as detached from reality.


    Surely in a perfect world there would be other significant funders as well, and there would be less risk of a single funder having too much sway over the course of LENR research. But we must concern ourselves with the world we live in.


    For those researchers who prefer and can afford to remain independent, this is also a sensible approach. It is probably one that will eventually need to be revisited when one hopes to make and commercialize a product.

  • Ok for Curtis.

    For David and MDI, I don't remember who is MDI... Anyway IH reports just contacts made in conference... Probably not fruitful.


    about kilowatt of milliwatt, I turned my opinion since a year.


    Sure the goal is to produce TW of energy , by bunch of kW or MW for most needs.

    But to do that you need good engineering, which mean good theory that can predict how to obtain kW without danger nor failure. Theory does not mean QM computation, but something like a verified table of which crystallographic structure, which electronic shape, which phase state, is associate with what LENR power and what outcome...


    If you want LENR+ you need first a theory of LENR, and to have LENR theory you need good experiments, like mW in a x-ray spectrometer with con-focal microscopy and real time analysis (they do that for batteries)...

    If you can do that with kW of heat, why not, but question is not to make heat usable, but phenomenon parameters measurable.


    Wright brothers started by inventing wind-tunnel, by shaping optimal propellers and optimal wings, by designing way to control the various moves around various axis.

    The flyer was build from design because of embryo of a theory, not fluid dynamic, but detailed tables and empirical laws.

  • Not really Eric. I have no doubt they are spending money, but it is very unclear what and where from this list, which contains (as we have seen) at least 2 mistakes. Maybe there is more we don't know about- I really hope so.


    • Confirmation that Bill gates have invested 6M$ with Rob Duncan at TTU

    Not IH Money

    • IH supports Mizuno/CleanPlanet in obtaining Japanese Gov grant... some confirmation of COP<2. Worki to acquire IP.

    Maybe some money.

    • Indian gov having authorized LENR research

    Not IH money

    • US Gov funding LENR modeling reserash in Navsea

    Not IH Money

    • LA Gatta /TSEM starting to work

    Probably/possibly IH money- Jed know perhaps?

    • Dennis Letts funded for research in progress

    IH Money

    • Cooper Core T)ech (?) with Dennis Cravens... on something complex, with piezzo/pyro resonance (?)...

    ? Abandoned

    • It seems Miley/Lenuco closing (?)

    ? Not clear

    • Peter Hagelstein seems to have interesting, if not breakthrough , results with stainless steal and water jets... Mitchell Swartz with Nanor too.

    ? Not clear

    • Tom Claytor (known for tritium?)/High Mesa labs: partner to test material and gases for IH... Mizuno, Letts ashes to be analysed?

    IH Funding. Amount (of course) unknown

    • Curt Brown/Pointsource : who are they?

    Last I heard not funded.


    • Etiam Oy : buying IP , patent soon granted?

    ? Perhaps.

    • JP Biberian funded to replicate Rossi (inconclusive at time they wrote), and e replication of F&P boiling experiment (ICARUS as far as I speculate).

    IH Funded.

    • Fabrice David

    Probably.

    • Robert Stringham... around sonoluminescence. seems to have something that work.

    Possibly

    • Iraj Parjmajad/Mel Miles... Zeolythe-based LENR?

    Possibly

    • David Fojt - MDI France with Renault(?)

    Not funded

    • MFMP guys (Bob Higgins, MValat) considering funding IH replication at that time...


    Not funded.

  • Yes, thank you, Alan. I stand corrected on a point of detail. I'll give a list I know about for sure, then, from Marianne Macy's IE article:

    • Peter Hagelstein
    • Dennis Letts
    • Brillouin
    • Rossi, of course (and I feel sorry for IH in this instance)

    Anecdotally I understand they've provided funding to others, including Yoeng Kim. And there is a long list of developments and potential developments in doc. 214-35. So my main point still stands up quite well.

  • What Alain's list makes very clear is that IH are putting their money where their mouth is


    I'd like to see the amounts of money Darden and Vaughn have personally invested in IH. Unless it's significant amounts, it's the other people who are putting money where the mouth of Darden/Vaughn is.

  • Unless it's significant amounts, it's the other people who are putting money where the mouth of Darden/Vaughn is.


    I agree about the "significant amounts" — if they're just giving people 5,000 here and there, that's nothing to even mention, in contrast to 50,000, 500,000 or 5 million, say. But Darden and Vaughn at any rate are not being flashy at all about what they've been doing. They did not even want publicity and were forced out of stealth mode by circumstances. And if they have simply served as a conduit for other people's money rather than their own (the details of which I would like to better understand), this does not seem to be something to criticize them for if they've been transparent with the other parties. That funding would not have otherwise been available.


    I appreciate your point, Alan, about thinking twice before swallowing tempting morsels.

  • JedRothwell

    Quote

    Since you, Mary Yugo, brag about how you have read nothing about the research, and it is indeed obvious that you know nothing about it, you have no business dismissing any of these claims.

    You're at least consistent-- you're misquoting me again. I've read extensively about it including most of the "best" papers you recommended and I found much of it poorly written and documented, confusing, and the rest inconclusive. What I *actually* wrote was that I am not particularly interested in low levels of heat, especially when measured by so-called isoperibolic calorimeters because such measurements are extremely prone to errors.


    Quote

    Why does consistency matter? If this were 1900, it would be wise to invest in cars run by gasoline internal combustion, steam, and batteries. In the late 1960s there were 4 or 5 major computer RAM technologies being developed, quite different from one another. It made sense for IBM and others to invest in all of them. Integrated circuit transistors won out, and the others disappeared, but that outcome was not clear at the time. MRAM (magnetic RAM) still exists, it still has advantages, and it might yet make a comeback.


    Maybe we mean different things by consistency. I mean that most LENR claims have little or nothing to do, in terms of principles and methods, with any of the other claims. The field lacks reproducibility and proper replication and followup of claims and improvements of existing experiments purported to give positive results. This makes LENR a confusing mess of conflicting claims, errors and outright scams. Clear examples of scammers are Defkalion and Rossi and I suspect that Nanospire, Miley and probably Brillouin are not much better -- if not scammers, at least major errors.


    Again: what IH should have done, instead of the inane memos they sent each other, is to have gotten one good group of (say a half dozen) unbiased experts in heat transfer and fluid flow. Then, those experts should have been well paid to do a completely independent investigation of each claim from each person or organization asking for money. Instead, IH distributed willy nilly millions of dollars for nothing but claims and unverified tests and experiments. And they are still doing it. Don't ask the likes of Lewan and McKubre what they think! Ask the head of engineering physics at Cal Tech or MIT or ask CERN or ask ORNL or Sandia to do the testing and THEN give an opinion on where, if any place, to invest. It seems IH has never done this and that is why I have suggested that Darden is possibly incompetent to invest in the field if science and technology.

  • I've read extensively about it including most of the "best" papers you recommended and I found much of it poorly written and documented, confusing, and the rest inconclusive.

    Ah. When I last heard from you, you bragged that you had read nothing. So, what have you now read? Which papers by which authors?


    If you are confused, perhaps you are not capable of understanding.