Posts by Argon

Jed I am easy to give you on this much: "Penon at least has been working in respected certification companies". And then all standard disclaimers: " If we can trust what Mats has written and his sources on Penons history are to be trusted". So that does not yet exclude the possibility Penon transformed from highly educated and respected certification expert to "paid Rossis lap dog and certified idiot".

Please allow me, while so many things are so contradicted in this whole mess, I tend now to lean bit more on Mats statement on this at this very moment.

I honestly hate to do this comparison, but I see lot in common in Penon and your history. Both respected experts with long careers, and now according to many claims seen in this forum, both of you seem to have switched sides from original.
There is bad contradiction here: Only one of you can have done it. I really hope that there will be some natural explanation like 'misinformed', 'played' or something similar and both of you could come out from this with dry feet.

Being wrong is excusable in my values, but knowingly defrauding people is not.

Alan you mean confirmation of analysis report, but not where the samples came from?

Engineeer48 is acting as middleman in these leaks. And he keep repeating that there are few more to come so maybe we get interesting summer after all.

Quote from Eric Walker

Quote from Argon: “He [Penon] has a degree and is qualified HVAC (afaik)”
Do you have a non-speculative source for this detail?

Eric, I don't want to hang on this old question, but just put up one more source of information about Penon, since I didn't first remember where I had read it before.

It was in Mats blog and article also lists Penon as certification expert worked on highly respected certification companies so quite strongly speaks against what Jed is claiming.

Quote

As for hints on the ERV Penon being incompetent, based partly on the HotCat report from August 2012, I would like to point out:

Fabio Penon has a degree in Nuclear Engineering, from Bologna University, with rating 100 of 100 and honors.
He worked for several years in the nuclear industry with thermo mechanics.
When the nuclear industry was put on hold in Italy, he turned to
work as expert on product certification, collaborating with entities
such as Bureau Veritas, Vertiquality and Det Norske Veritas.
The HotCat report from August 2012, signed by Penon, containing a few notable errors, was not
written by Penon. Penon assisted at a test on August 7, 2012, repeating
an experiment made on July 16, 2012. The report was written on the July
test, and Penon was only confirming that similar results were obtained
on the August test. Penon told me this in an interview in September,
2012. You could of course accuse Penon of not having studied the
original report sufficiently before signing it, but the errors were not a
result of Penon’s work.

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Thank you Alain for posting. For newcomers good CF status update by Michael C.H. McKubre, SRI International starting from page 183.

Thank you David. Please keep on reporting here when you feel so. Even people don't write comments on posts sometimes, it does not mean that they are not read. Sometimes people just don'know what to comment or ask.

About powder you write, unfortunately I know nothing in modern physics beyond original Bohr atomic model. What I could do is to throw grazy thoughts, where you or someone else could get some new real ideas.

Lets try: I think Rossi talks about sandwiching in new E-cat patents. Could it be that he did that already with old powder versions. What comes to my my mind is grazy ideas like evaporating LAH to coat the powder with it. I think his early E-cats shut down around 1300C where Nickel melted.

Or higher temps could be achieved in 'sandwitch mode' if first coat Li Ni powder with Al2O3 then result again with LAH. That would separate them physically, but I don't know would Al2O3 be optimal isolator.

Same thing could be done more accurately using ALD process (atomic layer by layer) but I doubt Rossi did not have expensive ALD equipment.

These are just absolutely grazy layman thoughts based on wikipedia googling without any scientific background, but maybe someone gets food of thought from these and could pick up further from here.

PS. My previous question 2) was poorly formatted. I meant that in you pictures you have several cores attached close to each other, wouldn't they 'disturb' each other, making them more difficult to control. So maybe starting with one core would be easier?

Since me356 seems to be busy with his invention.

May I ask @David Fojt any update of your 'Russian dolls'.

1) Have you already fired them up with fuel loaded or are you in calibration run phase.

2) Is there some specific reason that you have 3 tubes in cylinder instead of just one?.

Quote from Eric Walker

Do you have a non-speculative source for this detail?

Eric, small update. I would not dare to call this a 'non speculative' source, but for some reason Rossi seems to have felt important to emphasize his statement about Penon in his response to Frank Ackland in JONP

Quote

PLEASE DO NOT FORGET THAT:
The ERV is a nuclear engineer, with experience of nuclear power plants and certification+validation of plants

Spooky eh

Another example of problem of word against word and in this case as mats002 says oppositions of extreme.

If ERV is paid liar here then Rossi does not technically lie much on instrument part, but puts all sins on Penon to bear. Instead if Rossi speaks absolute truth here, many postings in this site are pure lies.

Only time will tell.

Quote from stephenrenzz

I think you make a huge mistake in believing that Dewey and Abd left because of MTD dismissal. They are both smart enough to know that was just a standard part of this legal chain...anyone who does not understand that I quite u

You could be right I really don't know a bit how FL legal system works. My instinct said that since litigation now is put to move on next phase (maybe against of what IH was predicting), continuing debate here is not best strategy for persons like Dewey who can be pretty directly associated to IH (as an shareholder).

My instinct could wel be wrong and I am easy to consider your view more realistic. I don't want to confuse anybody, just fitting the pieces in puzzle. I'm sorry if my speculation seemed too loaded. That was not my intention

Mary Yougo As Jed said we do not know if IH complained or not, but if they did, then again Rossi would be total idiot suing IH after that. At least if IH could prove they complained early enough before one year test completed.

For me this example shows so far that everything is just speculating since so much facts are still hidden. This weeks ews are that MTD is dismissed as big disappointment for IH camp, and probably made Dewey and Abd to leave. Also trial proceedings now got scheduled. Also for me that lawyers had met already earlier writing proposal for schedule than I had thought.

Everything else is just talks for me so far. There are too many contradicting pieces in scenarios to qualify. At least I withold my verdict until more hard tangible facts are seen.

Quote from JedRothwell

Argon wrote:
If testing protocol were so far off from decent, how on earth anybody would let it start, and even more unbeliewably roll FULL YEAR without any of the IH engineers blowing the whistle.

Who told you they did not blow the whistle? They blew it loud and often during that FULL YEAR. Many people heard them blow it, including me.

You can't just make stuff up.

Jed thank you for tireless answers, maybe my questions are too long. Lets put it simply this way:

Knowing whole year that at the end of test there is a risk that with this 'sloppy' setup Rossi would be able to claim his 89 m$ sans conditions listed in contract.
Shouldn't anyone who is in payers position be very carefull to file a written complaint or demand to fix the setup? At least I would be very carefull to cover that.

Jed, I can believe what you have written here is logical explanation how things went, but there os one thing that keep sticking in my eyes, and many times discussed already, but I still want to point it out.

Sorry I don't add redferences to all, but most can be read from your recent posting to this or thread labelled 'I was wrong about Rossi...'.

You have explained several times that you got some data from Rossi, some from people visiting the lab and seeing readings of the meters and what else? I think you didn't say in this thread that you have received any partial ERV-report?

Still you are ready to say that, you immediately spotted flaw in Rossis instrumentation and your data 'showed' COP is 1 or something lowbthat can be explained by error margins of Rossis test setup. You also say something like you asked from IH specialist who immediately confirmed that you were right. Iou alse keep repeating that IH has very good specialists and are able to understand if calorimetry is done right.

If that all is taken as truth, why IH:s smart pecialists accepted that test protocoll wehen making contract. If testing protocol were so far off from decent, how on earth anybody would let it start, and even more unbeliewably roll FULL YEAR without any of the IH engineers blowing the whistle. If IH: or Deweys claims are to be trusted, IH was trying to replicate results on their lab, 'but could not substantiate'. Wouln't most logical thing for IH to do be going to Rossis test facility an interview IH engineers and specilists. IH received 3 intermediate ERV reports before January. One may ask him/herself what would have done after no extra heat was not detected in own lab and 89m$ invoice is hanging in the air.

This is just my thinking, and there can be natural explanation like naive trust, optimism or simply accident/mistake etc. Allow me to stay on neutral/reserved ground until real facts starts to pour in.

Quote from Eric Walker

Do you have a non-speculative source for this detail?

Hi Walker. Unfortunately no non-speculative and especially I cannot recall was he declared quelified HVAC or just highly educated wit lots of experience in nuclear industry with good amount of experience in similar power measurement tasks. All I know was discussions that started in e-catworld (? if I remember correctly or Mats blog comments) arount he time Penons name became public. I think few weeks after Rossis summons. Frank Ackland then asked from Ross in JONP and he basically confirmed what was already speculated.

So yes it is mostly Rossi says and speculation of blog readers. I should have used AFAICR but was bit busy while writing and didn't remember correct abbreviation.

Thanks Jed for replies today. I looked JM Chemical products link you posted above and one detail caught my eye.

This is question to anybody who can clarify.
I think at some point it was speculated that customer had been subsidiary of JM Chemical Products (or even parent company JM) from England. Then I think someone was busy to emphasize that it is JM Chemical products inc (I can't recall who was it). In contract the name JM Chemicals Inc was corrected by hand in contract page25 here to JM Chemical products inc (in England there is subsidiary of JM called Johnson Matthey Chemical Products.)

Now If I look the link Jed posted. There is (9/3/2014) registered company name change from JM Chemical products inc to JM Products inc?
Probably again nothing special, maybe this be just changed to avoid confusing it to England company or is there any better explanations?

To me it seems that at least Rossi was not interested to settle this outside courtroom, maybe IH either. Also latest documents were at least written that way that it looks like both parties were perfectly happy to stretch the schedule as far as possible. Of course gathering all possible information and specialists for their case, but 16 months! Why? I don't get it.

Maybe that suits them best in any case. IH does not believe there will be any product to sell anyway, additional delay for possible 89m$ would be in better use meanwhile (and they can declare bankcrupty before Trial). Rossi can postpone possible payback of 'license' and additional charges to IH while planning plan B.

They are conflicting views and some open questions remains.
- Why IH would be happy to delay if they believe in license payback from Rossi instead of entitled for 89m$ payment? Why to hang in uncertainity that damages reputation and other business? Faster track would be just declare bankruptcy and take possible personal charges that follows. According to Dewey massive couter charges are waiting for Rossi. I think they would be any way bound to this case and cannot be on trial before this case is closed?
- Why Rossi would be happy for delay if he believes on getting 50-80m$ or his license back. If he has something, other markets would be enough and he would buy time to develop his product and maintaining the lead from competition. Nobody cannot enter into US markets for next 18 months even he would have technology.

All this does not make sense. Something is missing here. Do I really have to go into conspiracy theory side. If there is bigger picture, where it is mandatory to keep this technology out from disrupting US markets for a while and meanwhile court case would guarantee more wide awareness on what is coming in few years. Meanwhile let things proceed in other markets, because they cannot be controlled by IH tactics that become now revealed, or simply doesn't matter if other markets are used as test labs for one year.

I agree nothing of these makes any sense. We are missing something, but what? Everybody complete <younameit> seems to be best fitting scenario
Please explain...

Jed, thank you for answering my question about when your opinion on Rossi changed. It gave consistent view on how it all went down. I have few observations on your points.

I agree on how HVAC should operate. What bothers me with this is that it would make Penon complete lap dog of Rossi. He has a degree and is qualified HVAC (afaik), so he cannot be 'that stupid'? We know Rossis mentality, but giving up on all Rossis demands on test arrangements, would mean that he knowingly committed to operate against HVAC standards. I'm not asking you specifically to explain this, but it would just imply Penon getting so much money or futures from Rossi that it is worth ruining his professional reputation for ever.

You say that you received sample of the data from the ERV and some additional confirmation from parties outside of IH. I see bit weak bridge here. You may be better informed than what allowed to publish here, but I think it would not do any harm at least doing cautious homework questioning how much weight you can put on these sources when considering all these (as I wrote before). Remember also 100.1C speculation being just as cautious constant to respect Rossis demand to exclude extra heat stored to steam temperature beyond 100C' in earlier threads.

Of course if all what Dewey or IH has said, would mean E-Cat does not work, same way as if everything what Rossi says would mean E-Cat have average COP beyond 50. That fact alone proves neither party cannot be trusted 100%

Jed, you changed your mind and you had your reasons that you explained. You have all the rights deny answering certain questions no problem with that.

Is it possible you to give time-line, when you changed your mind was it slow process within last 6 months or so, or was it one single event like seeing flow meters changed?

Edit: Jed, in E-catworld at least my messages goes via moderation, you see small text telling that above your comment after you have pressed submit button. Then posting disappears from you also if you change to some page meanwhile. It comes back after moderation, that have been above 8 hours in some of my fewer and fewer postings there.

Ok you meant t hat one. Now I remember seeing it also. Based on todays documents this Sebtember guess was not so far off

Thanks sifferkoll for downloading the docs.

Extended schedule indeed, but I somehow think that Complex Case management path is better for both parties to avoid mistakes.

Can someone explain what third bullet in third document of sifferkolls list means in practise?
"Motions for sanctions No v"

Or could it be coordinated event. Maybe big boys called dogs home. See latest court docket updates from Cherokee. I don't have account there.

Maybe something else has progressed in dispute. Their response didn't get any additional dates, so MTD rounds are over, and maybe judge has said something?