IO,
Off hand, IMO the only ones here who fit that description (anti-LENR crusader) are Ascoli, Louis Reed, and a few others who were either were banned, or dropped off the radar.
Ok. I’ll buy that.
interested observer
Member
- Member since Feb 10th 2017
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Posts by interested observer
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Shane, do you consider THH to be an “anti-LENR crusader”?
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IO,
It is a long way off. Plenty of time to think it out. If you have a logical, and constructive disagreement with the idea, by all means post it to Ruby's thread.
Shane,
I don’t even know what idea you are talking about. I gather there is some sort of event being discussed but I didn’t see the original description wherever that was. So no, I have no disagreement, logical or otherwise. My comment was directed at the notion that SOT’s negativity does not imply opposition to the hopes and aspirations associated with LENR but only to jumping to positive conclusions based on flimsy or even fraudulent claims. As I implied with my quack medicine comment, just because successful LENR technology development would be a great thing, that doesn’t mean one should automatically assume that every LENR claim is a great thing.
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Shane, how do you feel about medical charlatans who claim to have cures for cancer? Do you cheer each of them on and applaud their efforts just because curing cancer is a great thing? If you don’t see the analogy, that is why you don’t understand SOT’s world view.
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Don’t be so modest, Director. Every paranormal phenomenon is your speciality and you give them all equal credence.
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A press release a real company does not make. Their address is still the VC office, they have no website, and go ahead and try to find any evidence of an actual operating company. People here talk about Industrial Heat as though they were some prestigious laboratory filled with state-of-the-art equipment and staffed by world-class scientists. Really? Perhaps they are located down the block from one of Rossi’s factories. And perhaps they have received the same waver from having to get any licenses, permits, or other documentation that even a hot dog stand would require. Or perhaps they really are a paper tiger. Even if somebody thinks they are worth $112m.
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The thing about IH that was consistent with the whole Rossi extravaganza right out the gate is that they did not have any physical presence or other evidence of being anything more than a company on paper. They were created only months before the Rossi investment and had no address other than that of the VC fund run by Darden and Vaughn. If they are more than just a funding vehicle at this point, it is not self-evident. Do they have a facility? Technical people? Capabilities beyond writing checks? Perhaps those things are known here, but I haven’t seen any evidence. Perhaps like everything else in the world of Rossi, it is all a deep dark secret. For this reason, the whole narrative of “is the good guy Rossi or IH” always struck me as an absurd comparison of apples and oranges.
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A business owner with greater than sea slug intelligence would need to consider the long list of alternative ways to save 20% on their heating bills before considering a crackpot scheme involving a serial scammer and a completely unknown, untested and possibly illegal technology. Therefore, if people here are trying to suss out the identity of Rossi’s customer, they should narrow it down to companies run by morons.
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There is really only one outcome of the forthcoming Rossi demo that is inevitable: whatever happens, Adrian and Sam12 will be delighted and quite satisfied.
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“I can't think of anything anyone could say that would persuade me that you are not a complete narcissistic irredeemable egotistical self-glorifying moronic horse's ass.”
I have no comment on this. I just loved seeing it said and thought it was worth repeating.🙂
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Going from memory, but you asked for some proof LENR had progressed the past 30 years in terms of understanding, reliability, and scaling up. Jed said yes, provided examples. You said that was not good enough, and asked for better proof, whereupon he directed you to LENR-CANR. You did not want to go there and "do your homework". He then tried to get the both of you on the same playing field, so as to continue on with the debate. At that point, you declared yourself a victim of his, and all LENR believers, bullying tactics.
No matter, because you agree the science is worth pursuing, and are "curious that it might turn out to be important some day". Well, we all are...so in a way, you are one of us. No reason to argue among the like minded.
The discussion of progress basically took place in posts #165 and #166 on this thread. Jed said yes or no for the various attributes. He directed me to McKubre and his video. I commented that he did not point out anything more recent than 10 years ago and he responded that every is old and dead but that there has nonetheless been progress.
That was pretty much the end of the discussion of progress in the field. Since then, Jed has mostly been telling me to stop disparaging LENR researchers, criticizing their papers without reading them, and denying their results. I have repeately asked for examples where I have done this and, naturally, have not been shown any. The rest of this has been other topics such as the competence of non-experts in evaluating scientific papers.
Anyway, i don’t care about the “bullying”. It is standard internet practice for treating people outside of the tribe. But as you say, I am actually rooting for the home team even if I haven’t been convinced that it will win so no worries.
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Shane, out of curiosity, exactly what headway is Jed not making with me? The fact that I “haven’t done my homework” means that I am not qualified to argue whether LENR is real or not. I agree with that. So what is it that he is not succeeding to do? Convince me to do research on LENR? That’s true. He hasn’t convinced me. I am content to consider the subject to be an idle curiosity that might turn out to be something important some day or might not. And I am content to wait and see which it is.
So apparently, since I am not arguing against LENR (as well as not arguing for it), I am not doing my part for Mother Earth. Well, I have no guilt whatsoever regarding efforts to save the planet since I consider the things I am involved with on that front to be far more relevant (at least at this point if not forever) than LENR. For those who seem to think that LENR is mankind’s only solution, I just shake my head. I shake my head even more vigorously that many of the most ardent LENR advocates are also climate change deniers. What are those people even trying to save the planet from?
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Roseland is correct in assessing the pointlessness of my “debate” with Jed. His criterion being met would certainly vindicate Jed’s view that LENR is proven science. As for my view, if LENR becomes a commercial reality (or there is some other widely-accepted manifestation of the technology), that does not really address my current stance, whcih is simply that I don’t believe I have enough reason to make up my mind one way or another. Jed, of course, thinks I am lying about that and hence our peculiar interaction in which he continues to ascribe opinions to me that I don’t hold. Meanwhile, obviously, if Roseland’s conditions are met, then I could not possibly remain undecided any longer.
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RobertBryant: I made a general statement that technical papers are written by experts in a field for other experts in a field. They are generally not pedagogical tools for instructing lay persons on how to practice an art. Does that mean that no non-expert can glean anything from any technical paper? Of course not. My point is that in most cases a non-expert is a poor judge of the quality of a scientific publication. If you disagree, then suit yourself.
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Well, it is clear that my sarcastic allusion to 8,000 electrochemists was taken literally by people here and even after I explicitly said it was intended as sarcasm, it is still being taken seriously. (Face palm)
And Shane, I am not debating the science. Really. I promise. I am criticizing the use of fallacious or improper arguments to support it and I really don’t like being accused of saying all sorts of things and holding all sorts of opinions that I don’t and never have. There are a number of people here who bash LENR right and left and forcefully declare that it doesn’t exist and it doesn’t bother anyone. I do none of that but get endless grief for pointing out the problems with the way supporters argue their case.
Jed is a bully and a very unsuccessful one at that since he is shooting with blanks. But since he is on “the good side”, he is permitted behavior that has gotten other people banned here. Then again, this is a private playground and the owners can make whatever rules they want.
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This is how China works. A congress of 5000 making a roman empire judgment ... Please extend your logic to all papers in all journals and all claims and you will immediately recognize the nonsense you write...
Google “sarcasm”. It might give you insight into the nonsense. Of course it is absurd to want to know the views of all electrochemists. Give me a break, you guys.
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These are good examples of how vacuous Jed’s belligerent dismisal of anyone who doesn’t bend to his will is. Of course, his other go-to is appeal to authority. Appeal to authority must be comprehensive if it is to be used at all. Jed is fond of repeating ad nauseum how the 100 top electrochemists in the world embrace the gospel of LENR. Setting aside the question of who anoints the top-100 in electrochemistry (People Magazine?), inquiring minds want to know what the other roughly 8,000 members of the Electrochemistry Society have to say. Until there is a full accounting, it is totally inappropriate to have any opinion at all. It’s only fair.
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The views expressed here about peer reviewed journals are quite illuminating. I had the odious task of editing a section of a journal for a couple of years and was responsible for locating reviewers for articles. People with professional integrity often declined to review articles because they deemed them to be to far from their own area of expertise. They correctly thought it was manifestly unfair to have someone’s research judged by a person without pertinent expertise.
I compare that experience with people here who tell everyone to read LENR papers and if they cannot identify errors or methodology problems then they should conclude that the results are valid. What utter self-serving nonsense. If you point that out, some will say that anyone can judge a well-written paper. That is incredibly ludicrous and utterly false.
And that is why peer review is valuable despite the fact that it can be abused. If a technical paper has not been judged by qualified experts, then it has not been judged. At that point it is reader beware.
I realize this is anathema to the local group think but I haven’t heard a believable counter argument.
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Adrian,
“Pretty good proof” is an oxymoron.
There is proof or there is no proof.
Actually, the list provides no proof of anything other than there being people who are convinced about the existence of LENR. That may provide a reason to believe it exists but it is no sort of proof. But Adrian’s standards of evidence are, shall we say, unconventional.
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In that case, you can have no opinion of cold fusion.
Yes!!!! You get it! I have no opinion of cold fusion. That is what am trying to say
McKubre's work is cold fusion. They are one and the same. When you say cold fusion is nonsense, you can only mean that his results are nonsense.
Only I never said that cold fusion is nonsense. Never! Stop making up crap.
I suggest you put up or shut up. Stop demanding that we believe you on faith alone.
Put up what or shut up? What can I show you so you believe that I am agnostic about cold fusion? EEGs with blank space in the CF lobe? Jed, you are incapable of understanding an extremely simple notion. I have no axe to grind on this subject apart from the comlaint that too many nutcases (including you, it seems) speak on its behalf.
Unfair generalization, and something the earliest CF opponents resorted to (guilt by association with crackpots) for lack of anything scientifically substantial to say...so nothing new. Yawn. When you say something like that, it tells me you are just spoiling for a fight, as I already suspected.
First of all, I am not an LENR opponent. I’m not even sure what that is, but it isn’t me. You don’t get to play the “if you ain’t fer us, you’re agin us” card. That is nonsense. No Shane. I am spoiling to get out of a fight that Jed keeps wanting to have. He attributes all sorts of negative statements about LENR to me that I have never made and then demands that I stop making them. If he would just stop with this straw man bullshit, I would be happy to drop the whole discussion. As for the allusion to crackpots being highly visible in the community, yawn all you like, but I will stand by that with great confidence. There are a fair number of them around. To anyone mystified by the assertion, I would paraphrase the old saw: if you don’t know who the asshole in the room is, then it is you.
