FP's experiments discussion

  • You are always welcome here, ...


    Yes, I know, thanks for your hospitality. I was just referring to my criticisms to the F&P results. I understand that they are not welcome here, of course.


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    I am aware of your role in exposing Rossi. You did, and continue to do, a very good job of it. You can even see the fruits of your labors right here on LF, as he has become in many ways a laughing stock...as he deserves. Others of course, helped to open some eyes about the man, including the IH/Rossi court records, but still you played a part and should be proud of that.


    Well, you know, my position is quite peculiar with this respect. I've never exposed Rossi, I don't care about him. Not by chance I speak about Ecat, avoiding mentioning Rossi. I've rather exposed the inconsistencies of the Ecat tests, which have been carried out, documented and/or supported by people who had the institutional duty to correctly inform the public and the decision makers. The Ecat affair goes well beyond Rossi, who is only the front man and, eventually, the main scapegoat.


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    However, I see little comparison's between he and FP's. It is one thing to bring Rossi down, and quite another to try the same with FP's.


    Rossi vs. F&P is the wrong comparison, they have not played the same role. F&P should be compared with the academic people who supported the Ecat reality, especially those of UniBo. Scientists, professors, researchers, experts in general are the real source of public credulity in both the FPHE and Ecat initiatives, the most important in CF/LENR history.


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    You may get them on some valid discrepancies, but motives, character, abilities, integrity, you will not.


    On an individual level, I'm only interested in the reliability of the persons who have been involved in experiments on FPHE, Ecat, etc. It is necessary because, as already said, the experimenters are part of the experiments and their reliability is essential to establish the credibility of the experimental results. I'm not interested in any other personal feature.


    On a more general level, the explanation of a social phenomenon such as CF/LENR may require the analysis of some other characteristic or psychological attitude. But this is not the moment, nor the place to speak about these topics.

  • On a more general level, the explanation of a social phenomenon such as CF/LENR may require the analysis of some other characteristic or psychological attitude.


    Cold fusion might be a social phenomenon for those outside the field, for those of us who work within it CF/LENR is a fascinating intellectual puzzle, a harsh mistress and part of our duty to try to make a difference to the future of the world.

  • a fascinating intellectual puzzle, a harsh mistress and part of our duty


    Has it got easier without the wet electrochemical cell used by F&P..?


    Certainly D.D. Dominguez, D.A. Kidwell, G.K. Hubler, S-F Cheng, M.A. Imam, K.S. Grabowski and D.L. Knies U

    at the Navy Laboratory found LENR a harsh mistress..with two years of negative expts..its lucky the US govt was paying..

  • Cold fusion might be a social phenomenon for those outside the field, for those of us who work within it CF/LENR is a fascinating intellectual puzzle, a harsh mistress and part of our duty to try to make a difference to the future of the world.


    FWIK, after 30 years and more than 0.5 B$, the main and only scientific result from CF/LENR research has been obtained in the psychological field, thanks to the intuition of the long-run researcher Stan Szpak: "scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe."


    This dictum circulates only within the LENR community to explain the opposition to CF (1). It's a pity, because IMO it also explains the LENR phenomenon itself (see Luke 6,42), as well as large part of the scientific research, to the point that - providing to add (many) in front of "scientists" - it could be presented as a well reproducible "Szpak Law".


    A corollary to this law is that "(many) scientists consider a duty to save (or improve) the world, starting from their own".


    At a broader socio-psychological level, ie removing the word "scientists", the Szpak Law (and its corollary) applies to everyone, including me. It is encoded in our DNA.

  • can . I didn't mention money, Ascoli65 did when he quoted Szpack. "Scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe." I am merely curious about what he is hoping to achieve, and if he considers himself to be a scientist how does it pay him not to believe in the cold fusion fairy.

  • Alan Smith

    I mean that some people might have motivations other than monetary for obsessively opposing cold fusion research and actively work against it. I'm only making the monetary remark because it's often suggested that prominent skeptics are on the payroll of large energy companies and because it seemed convenient within the wording context of that comment.


    So what would it pay him in this case, i.e. what would he have to gain from his extensive debunking efforts, since it's argued that cold fusion could solve many world problems if conclusively proven true? If he's one of those people who think that it would instead be a disaster for the survival of mankind, by picking irrelevancies and blowing them out of proportion he might be trying to delay the inevitable in the vain hope that people will start questioning the validity of the entire field and stop looking. Saving taxpayer's money? Nah, nobody believes that and the author probably doesn't either.


    Other than this, he might be simply the most competent troll ever seen so far, but trolls typically are into the game for the quick adrenaline rush and don't waste too much of their time building their arguments.


    I haven't followed the foam discussion in detail; this was just a quick observation-speculation I wanted to make.

  • So, how does it pay you to actively disbelieve - at great length and in writing - something that could fundamentally change the future of mankind for the better?


    Hard to say. At the lowest level, there is some form of gratification in solving "a fascinating intellectual puzzle" in an unexpected way.


    If I had stumbled upon this same issue three decades ago, I could have add a willingness to save my future from the disastrous effects of the spreading of a belief in another false solution to the mankind problems. Now it's too late for claiming this conceited scope. It's possible that what remains of the present civilization is kept running by illusions, such as CF.


    At this point, the convenience in believing LENR or not is a matter of individual expectancies. The only absolute value which has remained is truth, but I'm aware that nowadays it could conflict with hope, an even more necessary value. Which one has to be chosen?


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    can . I didn't mention money, Ascoli65 did when he quoted Szpack. "Scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe." I am merely curious about what he is hoping to achieve, and if he considers himself to be a scientist how does it pay him not to believe in the cold fusion fairy.


    I consider me essentially a curios, which is a fundamental ingredient of true science.


    As for (many) current scientists, let's talk an expert:

    https://www.mail-archive.com/v…@eskimo.com/msg59095.html

    https://www.mail-archive.com/v…eskimo.com/msg106309.html

  • If I had stumbled upon this same issue three decades ago, I could have add a willingness to save my future from the disastrous effects of the spreading of a belief in another false solution to the mankind problems.


    So you are trying to save the planet from LENR, and we are trying to promote LENR to save the planet. Interesting. I think this talk about money, resources, and talent being wasted on the pursuit of something you firmly believe is pseudoscience, is overblown, and over hyped. Most of those pursuing the science are older, were (some still are) working in universities, or government labs with plenty of time on their hands. Much of the lab equipment on hand is sitting there looking for a good use. Others are volunteers, working at home (Essex for example, Storms). Then there are the companies such as Technova, BEC, BLP working either from profits, or investor monies.


    So say for arguments sake; what do you think these people would be doing were they not looking into LENR? Alan told me he would be building model airplanes. Do you want him to stop helping Russ, and start doing that so he stops wasting his time on this CF stuff? If you ask me, there are millions of scientists in the world, and sparing a handful to work on LENR is not going to hurt anything, while alternatively having a reasonable chance to change the world. So why not?


    And money...plenty of that floating around being wasted on luxuries, wars, crime, etc. so what is a few million being diverted into LENR going to change?


    Thanks for finally revealing your motive. Here I thought it was constructing conspiracies out of thin air, and all along it has been to save the world "from the disastrous effects of a belief in another false solution to thr mankind problem". Honestly, I think you are wasting your time, because no one is going to stop their research based on your argument there is foam there, where no one else can see it. Anyways, we have Safire, NEDO, the Russians, BLP, BEC. Texas Tech, Atom Ecology, and others to buttress our belief nowadays...we do not need FP's anymore.


    But don't let that stop you. Take care. :)

  • As for the effect of the molten plastic, it doesn’t affect the foam. As already said, this melting can be easily explained with the high temperature reached at the lowest tip of the cathode,


    BTW Ascoli65... apropos your philosophical Szpak DNA

    could you show the forum

    with physics rather than philosophy

    how the lowest tip of the the cathode

    can melt PCFTE with an MP of >175C

    when the LiOD electrolyte it contacts is <105C???

    and when the current thru the cathode/anode ceases

    after the electrolyte level falls below the cathode???


    you said "easily" ...correct?

    I am fundamentally curios to see your physics in writing

    rather than your foam.


    "The only absolute value which has remained is truth"

  • FWIK, after 30 years and more than 0.5 B$, the main and only scientific result from CF/LENR research has been obtained in the psychological field, thanks to the intuition of the long-run researcher Stan Szpak: "scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe."

    First, no one has spent $500 million on cold fusion. That's ridiculous. Second, no one is paid to believe in cold fusion. On the contrary, scientist who believe in cold fusion had their funding taken away. In some cases they were forced into early retirement or fired.


    The locus of opposition to cold fusion is the plasma fusion project. Those people are being paid to not believe in cold fusion.

  • I'm only making the monetary remark because it's often suggested that prominent skeptics are on the payroll of large energy companies and because it seemed convenient within the wording context of that comment.

    No prominent skeptic is on the payroll of any energy company as far as I know. Most are on Uncle Sam's payroll, or Nature magazine's and they are not allowed to work for anyone else. The earliest and most prominent and effective opponents were in the plasma fusion program, and at academic institutions such as the American Physical Society and various universities. The opposition is caused by academic politics and the fight for funding. It has nothing to do with energy companies.


    If a practical cold fusion device emerges, I have no doubt the energy companies will oppose it. But at present they don't take it seriously, or they don't know it exists. Energy companies do not oppose plasma fusion research or space-based energy systems because they do not take them seriously. Nor should they. These are pie-in-the-sky schemes that will never amount to anything.