Rossi: “Steam Was Superheated” in 1MW Plant Test

Quote from stephenrenzz

While I don't believe your comments here change my point at all, I honestly do appreciate everything you wrote as I read it carefully. You are obviously a critical thinker...and a deep one at that.

Thank you.

My point was narrow, then I added additional analysis. The narrow point was about LENR, not Rossi; however, response to Rossi was heavily colored, from the beginning, by a belief that LENR was impossible. That was not accurate. LENR is possible. However, that fact does not support any particular individual claim. The history of LENR, in fact, is replete with overblown claims that sometimes had some reality behind them, and sometimes not. The most remarkable claims, sometimes accompanied by commercial efforts, went nowhere. There is a lesson in that!

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I gotta say though, it still blows my mind that so many intelligent scientists and engineers do not see right through Rossi's shenanigans.

I have sometimes called Rossi a "magician." It was clear from the beginning that Rossi was not a scientist. I saw that when he explained why he wasn't doing control experiments. "Because I already know what will happen. Nothing." That was a radical misunderstanding -- if sincere -- of what control experiments do. They do not show "nothing." They show the behavior of a system that is missing some element considered necessary. They then allow much more cogent interpretation of evidence. So, the Lugano test. No observation of the IR emissions at full input power but no fuel. As a result, no confirmation that IR emissions were being correctly interpreted. As a result, no confidence in the results. All predictable.

Magician? What magic? I've called it a "force field" that generates what might be called "directed thinking" in otherwise quite intelligent and sober scientists. I'm not sure of how it works, but this is what I come up with. Rossi controls the environment and what can be done. If a scientist allows that, he will see what Rossi wants him to see. Magicians do this. Magic is accompanied by "patter" that explains everything so that it all seems perfectly reasonable. Consider, for example, the "reason" given in the Lugano report for not using full input power.

Suppose a scientist there had objected. What would have happened? We don't know, I think, but ... it is possible that scientist would have been accused of not trusting Rossi and would have been excluded. Reading the history of Rossi, An Impossible Invention, that happened over and over. Anyone who came with the idea that their job was to independently confirm Rossi's claims, using their own expertise and approach, was excluded. Someone who was willing to "go along" was allowed.

I do not know if Rossi deliberately does this. I suspect, in fact, that it's instinctive or learned long ago. Ultimately, I consider it tragic.

However, perhaps the magician will actually pull a rabbit out of the hat. Maybe the magician actually figured out how to enhance NiH reactions. The problem with a magician is that, if the magician has sufficient skill, it's impossible to tell.

But the IH collaboration took this into a new territory. Rossi agreed to transfer the IP, fully (including any subsequent improvements). IH did not want to know how to create "convincing demonstrations." (i.e., magic.) They wanted to know how to generate heat, and presumably reliably. And they consulted with experts, they did not depend only on Rossi and friends.

Rossi continued to control the demonstrations, enough to always create uncertainty.

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or I have hope for LENR, but after everything we have been through with Rossi, we should be well into a position of expecting extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.

That's often misquoted and almost as often misunderstood.

It's "evidence," not "proof." Now, I came into the LENR field in 2009. I was a Wikipedia editor and saw some improper administrative behavior. I confronted that, purely on policy grounds, and, in spite of some surprisingly tenacious opposition, prevailed, or so it seemed. This had nothing to do with any opinion about LENR. I started to work on the Wikipedia article, because something was definitely off. Significant information, published in reliable sources, was being excluded, and relatively unreliable material, often very old and obsolete, was being included. It all had a slant. As I investigated, I found that the user called Pcarbonn, who later became a LENR scientist, had been very improperly banned, having been attacked over what should have been completely irrelevant for Wikipedia. I started to see how corrupt the Wikipedia structure was. There were excellent policies that were not worth the paper they were not written on, if there was no enforcement mechanism, no "neutral judiciary" or the equivalent.

I was topic banned before the end of 2009, as the result of a *successful* arbitration filing. If you "attack administrators" there, it doesn't matter if you are on solid ground, they will come after you. And there are enough of them, even though this faction is a minority, to exercise power. I was site banned for three months, which freed up a lot of time. I decided to devote this to cold fusion. By 2010, I knew the field well enough to know that there was, indeed, extraordinary evidence, but I found it was strangely not emphasized. I discussed this with Dr. Storms, and it is possible that his Naturwissenschaften review (2011) partly came from these discussions (he did credit me). It was originally written as a heat/helium review, but they asked him to write a general review of the field.

So when Rossi came along with that early 2011 demo, I already knew what was required in cold fusion for breakthrough work, and Rossi wasn't supplying it. He was making an extraordinary claim all right, but what was truly extraordinary was the implied reliability and control. It was far outside the envelope of what had been done. Hardly anyone noticed that Rossi never published reliability data.

So what would be extraordinary evidence? It's not all that complicated! The basic requirement is independent confirmation. Not an allegedly independent observation of an inventor or claimant's device, done under the control of the claimant. Rossi resisted all efforts to set up independent confirmation. He obviously did not want it.

So, my summary analysis of what happened in 2014-2015: The agreement between IH and Rossi, based on the text we have, obviously contemplated an independent test, I think with devices manufactured by IH, and with IH running the testing in their own facility and under their own control. The point of the test was to confirm that the IP had been fully transferred. It was a test of transfer, not of heat as such.

By 2015, this had not happened with the megawatt plant, and Rossi was, as he had long done, insisting on a megawatt test instead of the much easier to arrange and validate single-reactor tests that so many wanted. I imagine that Rossi insisted on going ahead with the megawatt test, which he was going to run. This demolished the intention of the agreement. IH could have refused. However, my sense is that they had decided to give Rossi every opportunity to prove his work. So they allowed it, and knew (I infer) that since the core of the contract had apparently not been satisfied, the underlying intention -- they did not know how to make these things work (I assume)-- they could still refuse to pay the $89 million.

Rossi behaved as if this was simply a bigger demonstration for him to run. He thought that if the ERV approved the results, it didn't matter what IH thought. After all, *they had promised!* I imagine a child whining that.

Most scenarios I can imagine around this involve Rossi being literally insane. That isn't an accusation. He is obviously paranoid, though. And "just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they are not out to get you!" The converse is that just because they are out to got you -- or may be -- doesn't mean that you are not paranoid.

The paranoid mind can be quite clever, but is ultimately dysfunctional, because success in human endeavor requires trust.

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All we get from Rossi is double talk, secrecy and broken promises....now compounded by a lawsuit. I have said it a million times, Rossi could prove the Rossi effect simply, quickly and cheaply to the community he obviously is interested in impressing.

Sure. It would be easy, in fact. However, Rossi obviously has another agenda. I can imagine a possible psychology.

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There would be no worry of giving away IP or anything...just show us it works. All I have seen is a ridiculous puff of steam that could barely even be seen in front of a black tshirt and coinicdental chopping of the video at the perfect time. If you know what video I am speaking of, you know how absurd it was when Rossi was asked to see the steam. Rossi talks obsessively to his fans on JoNP and here through his sock puppets all day long...he obviously cares what people think.

I do not know that Rossi has sock puppets, I've never seen any clear evidence of that. He appears to have dedicated fans who repeat whatever he's said as fact.

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I would say to Professor Rossi (bit0)

He is not a professor.

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if you care about science and your community, show us proof the the elusive Rossi Effect...

He doesn't care about science, and not about "scientific community," either.

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otherwise be understanding of the fact that you are claiming (especially with ridiculous ~50COP) magic that no other scientist in the history of man has ever achieved.

You have not understood COP and its significance. Infinite COP is easy, if you have any significant effect, and if that is your goal. It can be tricky because of control issues, but it can be done, using controlled cooling. So 50 CP is essentially close to what Rossi calls SS mode, self-sustain. In that mode, there is no heating power supplied, and the only power usage would be for control and monitoring. That circuitry can be separated from power generation, so infinite COP will be realized if there is any continued heating from a reaction. Any chemical reaction can show infinite COP. COP is not a terrribly useful measure except for certain practical considerations.

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But I digress...I do respect your view here. It is nice to have a civil discussion when not being attacked or ridiculed. Thank you for your indepth view.

You're welcome. I am active on Quora.com at present, same username as here, and answer questions on cold fusion there, often.

Quote from stephenrenzz

I was ridiculed deeply over on E-Scat world for suggesting the hazmat aspects. I was laughed at by many and ridiculed by some of the main posters over there and told I have no idea what I am talking about because there is absolutely NO hazard or danger concerns regarding LENR...."Rossi says". I also had a concern over E-Cat/QuarkX in homes across the nation as they tout over at Scat and I was again laughed at ....ZERO safety issues with anything LENR.

"zero safety issues" would be obviously naive. However, sealed fuel tubes, factory-loaded, should not be a safety problem. Shipping them would require caution, but nickel powder is routinely shipped. Basically, you don't want to get the stuff on your skin or inhale it. You can easily find an MSDS for nickel powder. This is hazardous stuff.

This is not a "LENR" hazard. LENR itself appears to be safe, in general, but if the reaction is not under good control, a system failure could be a real problem. Rossi experienced many explosions, according to his stories told to Mats. His control method, at least what he used to use, sucked. He was teetering on the edge of runaway, if he was to be believed.

So why didn't he use a different control method? It's not like it would be that difficult! The plus would be that one could operate at higher temperature, increasing power output. His method required operating below self-sustain. So he later claimed SS mode. What was he doing? No clue.

Quote from Thomas Clarke

Continually looking for hidden motivations behind posters is a refuge of those who seek confirmation from authority - if you are capable of judging what people say their motives do not matter

I wished your la-la-land was real where lying is discouraged, and not a business tool amongst others

For example: "wholesome" and "genuine" posters adamantly stating that they want Rossi to fall because he smears LENR name... righteous LENR crusaders who, in other posts, say that high COPs are woowoo, and that bureaucratic overseeing is necessary because think of the children... :^)

Also now, thanks to automated language processing, we have bots!