Have IH let their E-Cat License lapse by inaction?

    Quote from axil

    Defkalion made a good faith effort to develop a LENR reactor, IMHO, but I now understand how they failed to properly format the energy that their reactor produced.


    Good faith my ass. They repeatedly pulled the D.E. (Defkalion Europe) equipment out overnight, and refused to do proper tests. It was out-and-out fraud. Read Gamberale more carefully:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GamberaleLfinaltechn.pdf


    Quotes:


    "During the setup of the laboratory in Milan various improvements were introduced by the DE technicians and scientists concerning the calorimetry measurement. In particular a method independent of the flow rate measurement has been developed based on the heating of a large amount of water contained in a large tank and circulated through a pump in a closed circuit. This measure is independent of the measurement of the flow through the coil and it would remove any doubt about the heat measurement. DGT did not allow DE to use such measurement in any of the tests of their technology."


    As a further improvement we added a second flowmeter upstream of the water system in order to verify the behavior of the main flowmeter during the measurement of the excess power but also in this case the added flowmeter was readily removed by the DGT technicians forbidding us to make any verification.


    In no case has DGT enabled DE engineers to attend the assembly phase of the active components in the reaction chamber of the reactor R5 (built by us according to the DGT diagrams) nor left the reactor R5 complete with all the necessary elements for running the experiment in the DE laboratories without their physical presence.


    After several tests performed by DE to validate the DGT calorimetry we must conclude that in the most benevolent case we are faced with a gross measurement error that has lasted nearly two years and has misled esteemed researchers who have personally witnessed demos of the DGT technology in Greece, in Canada and more recently in Italy. DE has not been put in a position to carry out independent tests on the technology outside of a strict protocol defined by DGT and all the tests that DE has witnessed, even in its laboratories, have always been performed entirely by technicians from DGT (HJ and AS).


    During the periods when the DGT staff was not present at the DE site some component considered essential for obtaining the reaction was removed in order to prevent DE from making independent tests. Since this procedure is not consistent with established contractual agreements, DE had the need to perform independent testing taking the opportunity to have the complete and certainly working system in their laboratories during the days (and nights) just after the streaming of 23 July 2013, whose results are contained in this document.


    Despite the importance of the findings, DE has decided to give DGT some time to provide unequivocal evidence that the DGT technology was immune to the criticisms raised by DE. However after several months and despite continuous and constant request to provide the relevant documentation and/or to repeat the experiment, no answer has been given so far. DE has now been put out of business."



    They never gave DE any more data. They never responded to his accusations. They were out and out frauds, as bad as Rossi with his pretend customer next door.

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    I met Rossi in Raleigh on multiple occasions, found him very interesting and, at times, delightful. He is a driven man and ended up not wanting me around as a result of my questions and actions. I attended one of the initial demonstrations to WIF and Rossi spotted me with an IR temp gun. He made a couple of adjustments to the controls and stated that the system may be getting dangerous and for everyone to step away while he attempts to get the system back under control. He was claiming 450C at the time and the temp gun said much lower. After that, he told T Barker not to let me into the lab stating "keep those lawyers away from here". I'm not a lawyer but was glad to stay out of the way after hearing that and did not visit the lab again until 1MW system shipped to Florida.


    Dewey,


    I have some opinions about what you observed. His exclusion of you is consistent with a hypothesis of deliberate deception by a skilled artist. Some people are very skilled at profiling. In this case, he just profiles those who are likely to question him or be skeptical and removes them by throwing them out. IMO, he has likely developed a large repertoire of these types of behaviors that he can use when someone gets too close to the truth. People will just think he is eccentric or paranoid, but there is a logical goal. Currently, he seems to be working at rehabbing his scientific creds by mentioning that scientists will be involved in tests, feigning tentativeness, and referencing 5 sigmas. He appears to closely watch the general mood and works constantly to manage the perception of others. It is sad that he wastes his intellect and skills in these ways.

    Axil - Thank you for the response. Let's talk about your priority around rushing a product to market. In your opinion, is a working experiment or prototype needed before a technology can be productized and made ready for market?


    I don't understand your destructive or open-source IP statements. IH has done neither with Rossi. His IP doesn't seem to work period. Once working LENR technology is verified then speed to ubiquity is the IH plan. There are no gears to engage until there is something that verifies for a launch market. Is that 1 to 5W, 10W, 100W, .5W? Sustainable power levels, safety, form factor, service strategy, fuel longevity, etc... will determine the starting market. None of that information is in hand yet because nothing has verified.


    Piantelli may have a much faster but more deliberate and workable path to market and if that is the case, then Rossi is hindering what may be the best hope for useful Ni-H LENR. Rossi is a hindrance to LENR progress across the board.

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Peter - apologies for missing one of your questions - yes, I would testify under oath with my right hand over a Bible that IH has never able to generate any excess heat with Rossi IP and / or technology. In fact, I was just reviewing some previous reports by one of the most esteemed labs in North American and the control runs bracket (high and low) all of the loaded fuel runs in the Lugano style reactors. Sorry that I cannot provide any additional details there - they are reserved for the court.

    Thanks, Dewey. I'm making it clear that you are saying this, that this is not an official IH statement, because you do not speak for IH, right?


    "Any excess heat? must mean excess heat sufficient significant to be observed through the noise. Right? I say that because "no excess heat" is actually impossible to determine. Essentially what you are saying is that the IP was of no value to IH. It didn't work.


    It would be highly useful if IH could release, say, control runs from Lugano type reactors. This obviously would not disclose valuable IP and would serve to remove some level of doubt. Of course, Planet Rossi will scream that it's all fake, but ... you could also make dummy Lugano reactors available to MFMP, say. All they have to do is take the thing up over 900 W and they would know. There is still a lot of effort being wasted to "replicate" Rossi, including the Lugano test, it is not just Planet Rossi. It would be a service to the field to clear that up.

    Jack - spot on. Rossi is actually somewhat predictable in that regard. You're going to eventually enjoy learning more about the stories and postings that have guided Rossi into his evolving statements, disclosures, newfound beliefs and posting personas. It hasn't been that much fun living in his head but we're there and able to steer around the chess board in that regard. It's a game of nerve and skill to him and he is drawn to certain things like a moth to a flame. The inbound counterstrike is going to send him reeling.


    Do more test, add more sigmas?

    Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    "Any excess heat? must mean excess heat sufficient significant to be observed through the noise. Right? I say that because "no excess heat" is actually impossible to determine.


    "Impossible" is an exaggeration. Look at the blank runs by McKubre or another skilled researcher. Input balances output over a few weeks to within a few percent including estimated losses. That's a clean blank. A few percent is noise. +2% excess may "possibly" be excess, but when the same system was showing -2% a week earlier, the possibility is one chance in a million. Not worth considering.


    People know the accuracy and precision of the instruments. It is not all that difficult to estimate the recovery rate of the system. Granted, when you throw that in, it increases uncertainty.


    In real life, it would be silly to accept an excess heat result of less than ~5% with most laboratory calorimeters, or ~10% in an industrial scale test such as Rossi's. I would not trust 1% unless it was Martin Fleischmann or Mel Miles making the claim, and they would not make that claim.


    Noise is noisier at the bottom of the scale, close to zero. The difference between 10% and 11% excess might be real. 0% versus 1%? Naaaa . . .

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Let's talk about your priority around rushing a product to market. In your opinion, is a working experiment or prototype needed before a technology can be productized and made ready for market?


    The top goal is to get massive R&D funding into the LENR pipeline. The release of a LENR product is the means to that goal where people who can be impactful toward LENR development can see the product for themselves and be inspired by its possibilities. The product need not be perfect. It justs needs to serve as an assurance that money can be made with the LENR technology. The money men who make funding decisions can make allowances for sustainable power levels, safety, form factor, service strategy, fuel longevity. The product just needs to inspire hope and faith in the LENR technology.


    I can understand that the people in the possession of the LENR IP will delay product release for as long as they can to extend that product lead to the Nth degree. That is why competition is required to force the hand of those who have the means to do something substantive for LENR.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    They never gave DE any more data. They never responded to his accusations. They were out and out frauds, as bad as Rossi with his pretend customer next door.

    Defkalion had a great story, and their approach seemed plausible (if one accepts the Rossi Effect). However, I was far less than thrilled by the video demonstration, which took up a lot of time at ICCF-18, without any real value. As McKubre has said, watching cold fusion is like watching paint dry. And there was no way to do the kinds of testing necessary for independent verification. The Gamberale story -- and the Defkalion response to it -- showed that Defkalion was a fraud, almost certainly. Or were they merely fooled by the pump behavior? If that were the case, I'd have expected them to thank Gamberale for pointing out the problem and would have continued to work, at least until they could report that this artifact was truly ubiquitous. That they disappeared leaving behind a bad small. ... truly disappointing, to those who had extended them the benefit of the doubt.


    LENR is a field that is ripe for abuse by frauds. However, there are some signs that can be noticed. Dramatic results, far outside the envelope of what has been seen before is a red flag. Obviously, such results are not impossible, but when such results are combined with high confidence on the part of the inventor, while there is no truly independent evidence, control experiments are avoided, and ... it's impossible to verify because the approach is Secret, .... we need to stop paying wide attention to these claims, it is enough if one or two people check them out. If something is real, it should be possible to verify. If the Rossi results were real, it should have been easy to verify them in 2011 -- but Rossi was always excused by "eccentric inventor, and yeah, he has to be careful."


    It was obvious by 2011 that Rossi was being careful to exclude anyone difficult to fool from the demonstrations. A real (and sane) inventor would not do that. People who were eager to confirm his results were excluded, like Jed. Dewey just told his own personal experience with Rossi. Because he had an IR heat gun, he was a "lawyer" and to be excluded. Yeah, lawyers always walk around with IR heat guns. No, this was someone interested in obtaining direct information not depending on the magician's banter.


    Did Rossi pull the "it's about to explode" trick more than once?

    Quote from axil

    The top goal is to get massive R&D funding into the LENR pipeline. The release of a LENR product is the means to that goal where people who can be impactful toward LENR development can see the product for themselves and be inspired by its possibilities. The product need not be perfect.

    The problem is that he reliability problem is not solved, not clearly. I have argued for products in the field, for investigational use. There is not a lot of money available for this. These products need not be reliable individually if they are statistically reliable.


    However, I reject the "top goal" as to what is immediate. The immediate goal is to break the rejection cascade, which will open up funding, and while a commercial product would do that, there is no product in the pipeline. At this point, massive funding of LENR would almost certainly be mostly wasted. Rather, what is needed is exactly what both U.S. Department of Energy reviews recommended: modest research to address open questions.


    Several years ago, I identified the heat/helium correlation with PdD reactions as the clearest and most confirmed direct evidence that cold fusion was real and nuclear in nature. I began writing extensively about it, culminating it my Current Science paper in 2015. I proposed that the heat/helium ratio be measured with increased precision, and I pointed to ways, mostly overlooked before, as to how to do that. This has been taken up and I expect that this work will be published in the journal system. At that point, assuming positive results, the preponderance of the evidence will not only have shifted, but there will be a single reproducible and confirmed experiment to point to. While some sort of zombie of pseudoskepticism will continue, it will essentially be dead.


    And then research will expand. At first, this will not be commercial. My position is that the effect is probably not well enough understood to warrant major commercial investment. However, I expect commercial interests to begin watching the field closely, and possible to begin funding some efforts, understanding the high level of risk involved.


    As scientific research ramps up, commercial possibilities will appear.


    I used to call lhis Plan B. Plan A was Rossi knocks them dead with a commercial product. Plan A is gone, demolished by the Rossi lawsuit. (That is, we would not have known that it was dead if Rossi had not so clearly shown us.)


    However, Commercial interests may watch for the possibility of independent inventors finding something. Pouring money in looking for something that does not already exist, could waste more than mere billions. But if someone has a device to demonstrate, then independent confirmation should be facilitated. If the inventor refuses, we, speaking for the field, should ignore him. Period. No more "eccentric inventor" frauds.

    Quote from axil

    I can understand that the people in the possession of the LENR IP will delay product release for as long as they can to extend that product lead to the Nth degree.


    You understand that?!? I sure don't. That would be an insane business strategy. The sell-by date for new technology is short. You sell it quickly because it soon becomes obsolete and useless. Think of personal computers or PC software in 1982. Suppose we developed a complex new program back then with many features customers were clamoring for. Suppose we deliberately held it off the market for one year, to keep the competition at bay -- the way you are suggesting. One year back then was like 10 years today. After a year computers were faster, bigger and more capable so anyone could write that program.


    There have been some inventors who did what you describe. The Wright brothers almost lost all credit for the airplane because they refused to demonstrate or sell from 1905 to 1908. They thought it would take others as long to catch up to them as it had taken them to make the discovery. That was nuts. It took others 6 months, once the race began. See p. 5 and 6:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthewrightb.pdf


    The Wrights were genius engineers but lousy businessmen.

    Abd - I do not speak directly for IH. I speak myself as an IH shareholder, a person who is investing time and resources into finding verifiable LENR reactions and a friend and associate of Tom Darden and JT Vaughn.


    And yes, Rossi made the audible with a step back and clear the room the reactor may be getting dangerous maneuver - live and in color, right before my very eyes and ears.

    Jed Rothwell: "Think of personal computers or PC software in 1982."


    He has forgotten how Bill Gates and microsoft released an atrous product that failed 10s of times be day and it gained popularity because Microsoft failed to enforce their copy protection protocol. In terms of LENR, that is open source where the LENR technology can be used to build a developer and user base.


    Post edited to remove ageist comments. Unkind, unfair and unnecessary.

    Quote from axil

    In my estimation, Peter like myself have invested a lot of faith and hope in Ni/H technology. That support for Ni/H technology is transferred to Rossi as the only practitioner of that art to have a practical application of the technology.


    We both want to see the Ni/H technology taken seriously and we understand that this can only be done if an Ni/H produce goes into massive production. This goal of Ni/H revelation and proof of viability is not in the game plan of IH but it is in the deepest fiber of Rossi's being. Rossi is doing what we want and IH is not. This is why we give Rossi the benefit of the doubt. To undercut Rossi's legal claims, IH now want to undercut the Ni/H technology by disparaging its ability to produce excess heat which is clearly not true. Simply put, undercutting Ni/H to undercut Rossi is bad.


    Exposing a false prophet does nothing to detract from salvation...

    • Official Post
    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    He is terrorizing the one active Ni-H researcher who seems to have something useful and you, if you really believed what you are saying, should be outraged by Rossi's EPO patent challenges to Dr. Piantelli. On that subject, do you have some thoughts for Rossi's ongoing harassment of Piantelli, one of the true fathers of Ni-H LENR?



    OK Dewey, I give. How is Rossi terrorizing/harassing Piantelli? Please fill in your answer below:


    I, _______, hereby swear on a bible to say the truth and nothing but. Rossi _________________________________ Saint Piantelli.


    Amen I say, and hallelujah brothas and sistas.


    Signed,


    ____________________

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