Florida Boiler Safety Section information

    Hi all


    In reply to Jed:


    So once again you have reversed your position on what you said. Good that you admit when you are wrong. :)


    Getting to be a bit of a habit though Jed, it diminishes you as a source, or is someone feeding you false reports?


    I understand that you have been taking reports from IH's lawyers and IH employees, is this the standard of the things they tell you?


    Do you think the spin, you are putting on your admitting you got it wrong, improves your standing in the community?


    Or could it be perhaps that my pointing out this would inevitably lead to the ERV being made public, scared IH and perhaps yourself off?


    Kind Regards walker

    Edited once, last by Walker ().

    Like 1

    "If you have been in factories you will have seen state inspection certificates next to all types of heavy machinery, and boilers, vehicles, fork lifts, elevators, etc. No one in the first world is allowed to run a factory without safety inspections, thank goodness."

    This is true for things that are sold for routine commercial use....NOT research and development site and equipment. I worked in R&D for one of the world's largest chemical firms for 20+ years (and was in and out of the "factories" (we called'em "plants") on a daily basis). No R&D would have ever happened if the level of inspection you think necessary actually had been. Pilot plants were built and operated, both inside the R&D facility and sometimes inside the producing factories/plants. For those areas and devices, the company was "self-insured", and the workers understood that extra precautions in operation were required because the special equipment was not "safety inspected and certified" by any external authority. Note though that all the fork lifts and other equipment used on the plant site "were" inspected and certified because they were .


    To give you a "for instance" that "might" apply to the IH/Rossi/customer situation. "If" the customer's reactor (an R&D device, even though based on a commercial process) took in energy only as steam, their site would have needed a commercial boiler to provide the steam during times of "E-cat down" operation. That boiler would have been subject to all the inspections and certifications you suggest. "If" the reactor was designed to accept heat from electrical heat in addition to steam, such heaters would have been built into the R&D device, and NOT subject to those things. And of course, the E-cat itself is (or are), at this stage, R&D devices NOT so certified (as Rossi properly points out over and over).


    Don't get me wrong....I am all in favor of safety (in those R&D situations, it was still my ass on the line, so you can bet I took all the extra precautions, and participated in all the safety design reviews that went on before any of those gizmos cranked up. And despite all of that, one incident came close to "getting me".)


    Things are not quite as "cut and dried" as you think....there "are" legal exceptions.

    Hi all


    I refer to your position that Rossi could be accused of breaking a Florida regulation of boilers.


    Why did you raise the issue as if it some importance when clearly as you now admit it was not a matter of any significance?


    Is it that you do not understand Florida laws and regulations on boilers?


    Kind Regards walker

    Quote from Warthog

    This is true for things that are sold for routine commercial use....NOT research and development site and equipment.


    That is true. Florida has a different set of codes for R&D applications, as I pointed out earlier. In fact, they apply three different set of codes to university labs alone, depending on whether they are used to teach small groups of students, large groups, or no students at all. It is complicated! I refer this little legal gem, that I quoted earlier:


    "(6) Community colleges shall comply with the applicable chapters of NFPA 1 and NFPA 101, the Florida editions adopted in Rule 69A-3.012, F.A.C., in accordance with the following:(a) Instructional buildings, classrooms with a capacity of fewer than 50 persons . . ."


    However, as far as I can tell, no large boilers (over 117 kW) are completely unregulated and not certified. Smaller ones are not certified. Rossi's was only 20 kW so there was no need to certify it. It produced no excess heat. There was no equipment in the pretend customer site, and no significant amount of waste heat was detected coming out of it, so there was no need to regulate that, either.

    Quote from Walker

    I refer to your position that Rossi could be accused of breaking a Florida regulation of boilers.


    Only if he had what he claims. He did not, so it is a non-issue.


    I suppose Rossi knew he did not have any excess heat, because he did not bother to have the reactor certified. If he actually believed it produced more than 117 kW he might have. On the other hand, he seems to have no respect for the law, so perhaps he would just let it slide.


    If there had actually been industrial equipment next door using 1 MW of process heat, that would also need safety certificates. We know there wasn't because there was no waste heat.


    It would be awkward trying to get safety certification for a 1 MW nuclear fusion reactor that works by unknown principles. I suppose if anyone in the government of Florida or the U.S. government took that claim seriously, they would have shut him down immediately. With dozens of police cars and hazardous materials people, and an evacuation for several blocks around. It would be like finding a partially disassembled nuclear bomb.

    What I am talking about is INDUSTRIAL R&D, not university labs. Those are two totally different situations/systems, and different rule sets apply. University R&D labs are inhabited by ignorant and inexperienced grad students (I know, 'cause I was one of them for a few years). Industrial R&D labs are run and manned by professionals with many years experience per man/topic. The area of classification that applies to the Rossi/IH system is "industrial R&D". I can only tell you what I directly observed by working for 20+ years in an Industrial R&D environment. Things there don't work like you apparently think they do.


    Note that Rossi's entire career has been largely spent in the industrial R&D milieu, first in his own process, and then R&D projects done for others.

    Quote from Warthog

    What I am talking about is INDUSTRIAL R&D, not university labs. Those are two totally different situations/systems, and different rule sets apply.


    Yes, I know. Florida has different regs for them, as I noted. But there are regs for everyone. No one gets to operate heavy equipment without inspections and oversight. Not in the first world, in the 21st century.

    Quote

    Note that Rossi's entire career has been largely spent in the industrial R&D milieu, first in his own process, and then R&D projects done for others.



    I suppose that excludes the considerable time that Rossi spent in prison? And the time he spent not testing his thermoelectric devices at the University of New Hampshire?


    Actually Krivit characterized Rossi's "factory" as a large mostly vacant building bereft of any significant machine shop tools, electronics or anything remotely precise. The original ecat was housed in a small room of this building. The original precision toolkit used by a 90+ year old plumber friend of Rossi's to construct the original ecats is this (thanks to Krivit for the photo):


    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/s…-E-Cat-Plumbers-Tools.JPG

    Quote from Mary Yugo

    I suppose that excludes the considerable time that Rossi spent in prison? And the time he spent not testing his thermoelectric devices at the University of New Hampshire?


    Actually Krivit characterized Rossi's "factory" as a large mostly vacant building bereft of any significant machine shop tools, electronics or anything remotely precise. The original ecat was housed in a small room of this building. The original precision toolkit used by a 90+ year old plumber friend of Rossi's to construct the original ecats is this (thanks to Krivit for the photo):


    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/s…-E-Cat-Plumbers-Tools.JPG


    Rossi's lab has never looked like much more than a hobbyist's home lab from a technical point of view, a million miles from that which you would expect from a multi-million dollar funded research setup. From an electronics standpoint, I am quite sure my own personal home lab is more advanced than what we have seen. I have also always found amusement in his using old shelving rails to test the invention of the century...too funny! I really love the plumbers bag...one would guess Rossi is doing working on an awesome grade-school science fair project or possibly some low-level home repair from his impressive setup of magnificence...lol.

    "Yes, I know. Florida has different regs for them, as I noted. But there are regs for everyone. No one gets to operate heavy equipment without inspections and oversight. Not in the first world, in the 21st century. "


    Please point out specifics as to exactly what covers industrial R&D in your postings, because I apparently missed seeing them. The point about industrial R&D is that there is no one better qualified to certify the plant than the ones that designed it in the first place. There ARE no other qualified experts to do the certification. Commercial equipment used in the system may indeed be inspected and certified, but the overall plant......no. Who certifies the tokamak prototype?? Who certifies the CERN accelerator?? So yes, some VERY "heavy equipment gets built and operated "without inspections and oversight".

    Quote from Warthog

    Please point out specifics as to exactly what covers industrial R&D in your postings, because I apparently missed seeing them.


    I did not discuss that, except to note that a university lab not used for teaching is classified "industrial" in the Florida regulations.


    I have not discussed the regulations in detail. I gave the link to the Florida government web site. You are welcome to read about this yourself.


    http://www.myfloridacfo.com/Di…ml?Action=ShowBoilersPage



    Quote from Warthog

    Who certifies the CERN accelerator??


    Tons of agencies do, I am sure. Government installations are certified to a fair-thee-well. It probably takes years to get anything approved. As I noted earlier, the Florida regs say that Federal installations must be inspected by Federal inspectors according to Federal regulations. They hand off the job to Uncle Sam. They do not, however, allow Federal facilities to operate without oversight or inspection.


    CERN equipment may be complicated, but power supplies are power supplies. I am sure all their wiring, safety equipment, fire suppression and whatnot conforms to E.U. standards. It does not matter what the machines do. Regulators only want to confirm the equipment meets safety standards for the operators.

    "Tons of agencies do, I am sure. "


    Translation...."I don't know". You are making assumptions. My twenty years experience says you are wrong. Yes....individual devices sold commercially and installed will have been inspected and certified, but that typically happens before it leaves the manufacturers site. There probably was an electrical inspection, and a visit from the fire marshal or his rep, but these would be done before plant startup. And the electrical inspection will only look at the wiring/boxes, etc. and whether or not they are "up to code".


    Industrial R&D is done differently. And until you can come up with a concrete regulation, I have to go with what I SAW to be the case while actually DOING industrial R&D.


    Whether you like it or not, there is a large degree of "self-certification" in R&D. I have participated in MANY safety reviews for pilot operations, and they are far more thorough than anything a bureaucrat is likely to do.

    Quote from Warthog

    Translation...."I don't know". You are making assumptions. My twenty years experience says you are wrong. Yes....individual devices sold commercially and installed will have been inspected and certified, but that typically happens before it leaves the manufacturers site.


    The Florida regs say that smaller devices below 117 kW are exempt. They are inspected before installation.


    Quote from Warthog

    Industrial R&D is done differently. And until you can come up with a concrete regulation,


    Why should I do your homework for you? Are you seriously suggesting that factory equipment is not regulated and inspected? This is not 1870.

    Hi all


    So you cannot find a cause to report Rossi Jed. Rossi should patent you with all the hot air you blow.


    I realy thought you and IH had found a way to leak the ERV. Have a real good try, in fact why not just do it spec anyway, unless of course you do not want any one to see the ERV?


    Now why would you do that Jed?


    Kind Regards walker

    Quote from Walker

    So you cannot find a cause to report Rossi Jed.


    I never said I did have a cause to report him. He has done nothing illegal as far as I know. He has violated no safety codes. It may be a violation to run a 20 kW boiler with inadequate instruments, but I wouldn't know about that.


    He violated contractual agreements with I.H. That is a civil matter, not criminal. It is not something I or anyone else can report to authorities. Government authorities do not enforce or investigate contractual obligations or disputes. The courts may rule on them, but the government does not enforce them.


    If the gadget actually worked the way he claims, it would be a violation of safety regulations. I am sure it has not been certified the way Rossi claims. There is no certification on file for that address. Also, as I explained earlier: "I find it absolutely impossible to believe that the authorities in the Boiler Safety Section would ignore a nuclear reactor that works by unknown principles, one that is producing dangerous levels of heat in a building not zoned for that. They would not let Rossi go on testing this device in a building with other people, in a crowded neighborhood."

    Rossi has been reported to several agencies more than once (not by me yet because, unlike with Sniffex, I have no first hand knowledge of exactly how his scam worked), according to a contact. Government regulators are busy so it will take some time but I am reasonably confident they will get to him in due time, LOL.

    Hi all


    So Jed if you know so much about the ERV report and the plant why dont you post it up... Unless of course you are just making this all up in your own head..?


    Kind Regards walker

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