Judge Orders Jury Trial in Rossi et al v. Darden et al Starting June 26, 2017

Quote from axil

Why would Jed's friends fed FUD to Jed. Simple, to protect their research money. If Rossi got the 89 million, Jed's friends would get nothing. That is strong motivation and how much is friendship worth anyway?

2 major problems with this wild speculation. Firstly, there is no evidence that IH recently raised any money to finance research and secondly there is no evidence that either Jed or his friends received any research funds (from older sources).

Then we have a logical fallacy that if Rossi had been paid $89M Jed's "friends" get nothing! But IH would only pay $89M if Rossi's technology worked in which case the whole field would now be awash with research funds.

If serious researchers are "pissed" it is because Rossi failed to disclose the know-how for which IH contracted and paid. Rossi made allegations of fraud. This damages the entire field. Whatever the result of the Court case, lawyers are likely to pocket the cash which could otherwise have been invested in development.

I saw in the complaint filed by Rossi where he wants damages. Damages means he wants 3 times 89 million, that is 267 million if criminal intent by IH is adjudged. The loss of that much money would mean the end of IH and all its shareholders would be out of luck. Rossi would be the only show in town.

MY I think you are wrong about the law but correct in your assessment of the outcome. If Rossi can prove fraud he need only demonstrate loss of $89M to claim triple (punitive) damages. After having already paid Rossi $11.5M, and after NOT receiving the know-how necessary to raise more money, it's likely there will be slim pickings even if Rossi were to win. Who is going to invest in IH (or Rossi) whilst there is uncertainty? More to the point, why is Rossi creating uncertainty when he could easily come to a compromise by transferring the know-how? That would be a win-win situation.

Mary

Quote from Mary Yugo

Rossi will probably have to prove to the court and to IH experts that the ecat works. And most of us know he won't be able to that.

All Rossi has to do is present the court with the four ERV reports, none of which have been challenged by IH et al.

Okay you may say, that's easy, based on Lugano and other reports signed off by Penon there are so many errors. Mary that does not matter, what matters is what the final ERV report actually says.

If as Rossi claims it is positive, then IH must successfully challenge it. How can they do that? Well they can employ a number of Rossi's competitiors and ask them to assess it. But then that would prove Rossi's second complaint, that IH misappropriated Rossi's IP.

Now Mary, I'm not saying it cannot be but regardless as to whether Rossi's stuff works or not, everything hangs on the ERV report. In particular, the eye that the IH camel must pass through is to show the ERV report is 'baseless' without their expert witnesses, (if they are Rossi's potential competitors) having had any access to the claimed 'misappropriated IP.

Rossi is in a very strong position even though IH may not ne able to get his stuff to work.

Best regards
Frank

Quote from frankwtu

If as Rossi claims it is positive, then IH must successfully challenge it.

What's that IH?: 1 director definitely no employees?? only (very, very skilled...) contractors and pissed off investors?

Let's focus on the real scientific world and look after well documented experiments.

Mills is more or less completely open, documented, and other institutions have reproduced his claims...

To throw spin-money against BLP can only work with black-hole minded persons...

Quote from IH Fanboy

With money that was attracted due to Rossi's e-Cat. So the rest of the LENR researchers can thank Rossi for this funding. And don't even bother trying to speculate that IH's investment take was inspired by non LENR+ experiments, because that is simply a non-starter. No entity in their right minds are going to invest 50 mill on something that has zero commercial viability. It was because of Rossi, plain and simple.

Unfortunately that's exactly what happened...millions WERE invested in something that has zero commercial viability...the E-Cat.

Quote from frankwtu

Mary

All Rossi has to do is present the court with the four ERV reports, none of which have been challenged by IH et al.

Okay you may say, that's easy, based on Lugano and other reports signed off by Penon there are so many errors. Mary that does not matter, what matters is what the final ERV report actually says.

If as Rossi claims it is positive, then IH must successfully challenge it. How can they do that? Well they can employ a number of Rossi's competitiors and ask them to assess it. But then that would prove Rossi's second complaint, that IH misappropriated Rossi's IP.

Now Mary, I'm not saying it cannot be but regardless as to whether Rossi's stuff works or not, everything hangs on the ERV report. In particular, the eye that the IH camel must pass through is to show the ERV report is 'baseless' without their expert witnesses, (if they are Rossi's potential competitors) having had any access to the claimed 'misappropriated IP.

Rossi is in a very strong position even though IH may not ne able to get his stuff to work.

Best regards
Frank

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This is absolutely not true. There is no reason IH would have to go to Rossi's competitors to assess anything. Expert witnesses in Science and Engineering disciplines will no doubt be called upon by IH, but there is no reason for them to be competitors of Rossi. That is just illogical fabrication. For those of you on Planet Rossi...the F in FUD is Fabrication as of late.

Quote from Wyttenbach

What's that IH?: 1 director definitely no employees?? only (very, very skilled...) contractors and pissed off investors?

Let's focus on the real scientific world and look after well documented experiments.

Mills is more or less completely open, documented, and other institutions have reproduced his claims...

To throw spin-money against BLP can only work with black-hole minded persons...

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Yes, lets as you say, focus on the real scientific world and look after well documented experiments. When we look at all of the scientists in all of history of mankind, we find nothing more than promising but anomalous results barely above COP~1, yet an inventor with no past successes who holds a papermill degree has claimed that of COP~50....and in a working product ready for order no less! Let that sink in for a moment.

Quote from stephenrenzz

There is no reason IH would have to go to Rossi's competitors to assess anything.

Indeed, that would be a bad choice of people! Some of Rossi's competitors are as flaky as he is. If there is a trial, and the ERV report or the test becomes an issue, the best choice of expert witnesses would be professional HVAC engineers licensed in the state of Florida. I am sure they would say that Rossi's calorimetry was done incorrectly and it did not meet code. Meaning he used the wrong instruments and methods, that did not meet the methods of measuring boiler performance that are mandated in Florida regulations.

Any HVAC engineer who testifies that Rossi's test was valid would be committing perjury, and should have his license revoked.

stephenrenzz

Quote from stephenrenzz

This is absolutely not true. There is no reason IH would have to go to Rossi's competitors to assess anything. Expert witnesses in Science and Engineering disciplines will no doubt be called upon by IH, but there is no reason for them to be competitors of Rossi. That is just illogical fabrication. For those of you on Planet Rossi...the F in FUD is Fabrication as of late.

Maybe not, all I am saying is this is the eye the IH camel must enter, its interesting you agree that IH will no doubt bring its own expert witnesses, I assume to challenge the ERV report, am I correct?

This will be very difficult as none of us on this forum or in the wider scientific community can agree on anything related to LENR, Whatever is claimed will of course be challenged by Rossi's lawyers and the Judge and jury will be left having to decide. I wouldn't call that a fabrication would you?

Best regads
Frank

Quote from JedRothwell

Indeed, that would be a bad choice of people! Some of Rossi's competitors are as flaky as he is. If there is a trial, and the ERV report or the test becomes an issue, the best choice of expert witnesses would be professional HVAC engineers licensed in the state of Florida. I am sure they would say that Rossi's calorimetry was done incorrectly and it did not meet code. Meaning he used the wrong instruments and methods, that did not meet the methods of measuring boiler performance that are mandated in Florida regulations.

Any HVAC engineer who testifies that Rossi's test was valid would be committing perjury, and should have his license revoked.

Any HVAC engineer who participates in the Rossi case is committing professional Seppuku (especially for you - some culture that you like).

Jed

Quote from JedRothwell

Any HVAC engineer who testifies that Rossi's test was valid would be committing perjury, and should have his license revoked.

Is this legal fact or your opinion? have you taken legal advice on this?

So the Jury are faced with Penon saying Rossi's invention works and an HVAC engineer says "I wouldn't have measured the COP that way". For clarity the Judge asks the HVAC (heating, ventilating, and air conditioning) engineer (still carrying his tool bag and with a blackened face from a boiler he has just fixed) if he can categorically say the nuclear scientist Penon is wrong and that Rossi's E-cat does not work, and he may say: "I'm sorry sir, I'm not a scientist, I just would not have measured it that way"

Game set and match to Rossi and Pennon I think.

Best regards
Frank

Quote from frankwtu

Is this legal fact or your opinion? have you taken legal advice on this?

Obviously, that is my opinion, based on my reading of Rossi's data.

Quote from frankwtu

So the Jury are faced with Penon saying Rossi's invention works and an HVAC engineer says 2I wouldn't have done it that way". For clarity the Judge asks the HVAC (heating, ventilating, and air conditioning) engineer if he can categorically say Rossi's E-cat does not work, and he says "I'm sorry sir, I'm not a scientist, I just would not have measured it that way" Game set and match to Rossi and Pennon I think.

You think? You do not know anything about the court system. Penon is not licensed in Florida. He should not even be doing such large scale calorimetry in the first place. If the gadget really did produce 1 MW, Rossi and Penon would have broken many regulations, with a set of instruments and procedures that any expert would testify were insanely dangerous. (In real life, if there had been 100 or 200 kW of heat, the whole darn reactor would have exploded and killed the observers.)

I do not think Penon would even be allowed to testify, since he is not an expert witness, not having any sort of license to measure heat.

The engineers would not say: "I'm sorry sir, I'm not a scientist, I just would not have measured it that way." He would say: "These instruments and methods cannot produce a meaningful answer. They do not meet the standards for measuring boiler performance in Florida. They are dangerous. Additional tests proved the machine was producing only 20 kW (the input power), but even at 20 kW these instruments and methods were dangerous and should not have been allowed. Regarding the customer site, no equipment was found there; there was not sufficient ventilation to allow a 1 MW heat release without killing everyone; and no such heat release was detected, so it not possible it occurred."

That sort of testimony is about engineering, not science. Any HVAC engineer could give this testimony. They are trained to measure boiler performance, and to know how much ventilation is needed. If they do not follow regulations, they lose their license. If they make a mistake, they can kill people. So they can address these issues authoritatively -- far more authoritatively than any professor, or than Penon, whose only certification is that he is a certified nitwit, and Rossi's patsy, and likely to end up in jail if he does not come clean with the authorities.

Jed

Quote from JedRothwell

Obviously, that is my opinion, based on my reading of Rossi's data.

So you trust what Rossi says?

Quote from JedRothwell

Penon, whose only certification is that he is a certified nitwit, and Rossi's patsy,

Oh, the guy you get your data from and who you trust?

Quote from JedRothwell

He should not even be doing such large scale calorimetry in the first place.

So why did IH employ him to set the criteria for the contract?

Jed, Rossi's E-cat is not a boiler within the definition of Florida Statute 554, the Boiler Safety Act. 554.1021 Definitions.—As used in ss. 554.1011-554.115:

Boiler definition: "a closed vessel in which water or other liquid is heated, steam or vapor is generated, steam is superheated, or any combination of these functions is accomplished under pressure or vacuum, for use external to itself, by the direct application of energy from the combustion of fuels or from electricity or solar energy."

You and others claim there was no heat generated 'for use external to itself'. Also the energy is not from 'the combustion of fuels or from electricity or solar energy'.

I suggest you do your homework.

Best regards
Frank

Quote from frankwtu

Jed

So you trust what Rossi says?

Oh, the guy you get your data from and who you trust?

So why did IH employ him to set the criteria for the contract?

Best regards
Frank

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Do you have access to Penon's nitwit certification documentation? Who did the certification?

Quote from frankwtu

So you trust what Rossi says?

Yes, when he inadvertently reveals the truth, I believe it. It was not in his interest to let this data out. When someone says something against his interests, you should believe it. He is trying to cover it up now, by pretending he has to keep it secret before the trial. If you ask him for a summary of the ERV data, that's what he will tell you.

Quote from frankwtu

So why did IH employ him to set the criteria for the contract?

I.H. did not employ him. Rossi did. I.H. does not believe his conclusions, as they said in the March 10 press release and in their Motion to Dismiss.

Quote from axil

Do you have access to Penon's nitwit certification documentation?

Yes, I do. Data from the ERV report.

Quote from axil

Who did the certification?

He did it to himself.

Here is more certification:

http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-co…09/105322688-Penon4-1.pdf

Quote from frankwtu

All Rossi has to do is present the court with the four ERV reports, none of which have been challenged by IH et al.

They were challenged. In March I.H. said they should not be believed. Later, in their Motion to Dismiss, I.H. told the court ". . . such as departing from the purported test plan, ignoring inoperable reactors, relying on flawed measurements, and using unsuitable measuring devices." Those are explicit challenges.

If Rossi presents the ERV data as evidence, it will be over before it begins. No qualified expert witness will back him up. I expect even he is not that stupid. I suppose he will try to bury the ERV, and have it ruled inadmissible for some pretzel-logic reason.