Glad AA was able to cheer up a little. I await a positive contribution from the guy.
The R'ster has had a 1MW "customer ready" system for years and the market has spoken.
Its a real head scratcher to try and understand the trade-in of the 1MW world saver for a 20W cell phone charger (4 cell phones to be fair).
I guess we also need to think about which market is speaking - the wealthy career specialist is a master there.
Display MoreThe latest hint that Rossi is making progress with his plans for production of E-Cats is that Mats Lewan has postponed his New Energy World Symposium.
https://new-symposium.org/2018…posium-will-be-postponed/
Lewan writes: "The main reason is that several people, including some of those who are working with the development of LENR based technologies which is the main focus of the symposium, have asked me to wait until there’s a product in the market."
As far as know, there are only two contenders claiming to be anywhere close to marketing their product. Those are Rossi abd Brillouin. BLP's Suncell is supposed to be something other than LENR.
Rossi wrote on his blog. "I cannot answer for Mats Lewan, but I think he is referring to what I told him."
I am in favor of this as it is clear the critics will only be persuaded by commercial sales that the effect is real.
Adrian,
Love your misguided optimism.
I predict that we will not see a Rossi
Energy Out > Energy In product in our lifetime
drian , This all sounds and reads pretty much like simply copy and paste from JONP...isn’t there any detail that you would put into question or find strange as an experienced engineer? Really nothing?
Zorud, I have stated all the above a long time ago. I don't need JONP for that, but it doesn't seem to sink in to the skeptics..
I have had many years experience in business, running experiments and even building complete manufacturing plants. What experience do you have to make you doubt what I say?
How about even odds and we each
put 100£ On the table Mark H.
I think you didn't understand the economics of Mark H's proposal. The offered you 10:1 odds and you want even money. If you want to do even money, I will bet $20,000 against Rossi.
Love your misguided optimism.
I predict that we will not see a Rossi
Energy Out > Energy In product in our lifetime
I'd be happy to take a bet like Mark H offered - but seems to have backed off.
To suggest that Rossi simply hand over a reactor to a third party for testing is what is ridiculous. Not only is the present patent system a mess and very expensive when it gets to court, but you seem to have no idea how business works. The last thing he needs is for some competitor to get his IP and beat him to the market.
Adrian,
I do not know what field of engineering you claim to be from, or perhaps what period of history.
But "hand over a reactor for third party testing" is EXACTLY what Rossi will have to do before any commercial sales will EVER be seen!
An eCat will HAVE to pass any number of regulatory tests by accredited agencies. These will be safety, environmental and industry standards. These agencies WILL NOT let Rossi be the tester nor allow Rossi to "flip hidden switches" when it comes to measuring time!
Where have you worked at that you think this will happen?
Doral was NOT a commerical sale! Rossi WAS the customer. NO REAL customer will ever put an untested and unknown reactor into a public facility (meaning a place that employees work) without certifications. It will not happen.
So if Rossi says ANY reactors are sold, you can BET is will be just like Doral. Secrect customer, secret location, secret everything. It will prove nothing and convince no one but you and a few others... simply because "Rossi says".
Yes, for there to be true commercial sales, Rossi will have to "hand over his reactor to third party testing". That is exactly what he will have to do. Do you not realize this? Again, what industry did you work in that allow you to think otherwise? 
But "hand over a reactor for third party testing" is EXACTLY what Rossi will have to do before any commercial sales will EVER be seen!
Rossi claims to have regulatory permissions for industrial versions of the E-Cat. Permission for industrial use is far easier than for domestic use. I have had to obtain permission for all sorts of equipment, including furnaces, over the years. What is you experience?
The "test" will be whether it performs to specifications. Rossi has stated the buyer gets his money back if it fails to do so.
My estimate for Rossi reaching production was mid 2019, but the offered odds were good.
zorud, that is not corect. Darden was told the deal with JM had fallen through near the start of the test.
AA, your assertions are factually incorrect. The documents filed with the court clearly indicate that Rossi and/or one of his associates created fake invoices relating to the fake JM entity. I am certain that you recall how Rossi and his associates had directly told IH that neither Rossi or any of his associates had any affiliation with, interest in or control of the fake JM. Again, documents submitted to the court in the trial clearly established that Rossi had complete control of the fake entity, that the fake entity had no affiliation with the real JM and that the fake JM was created solely to fraudulently convey the appearance that a real purchaser of the heat that was to be produced existed. The fake JM was a fraud from the very beginning.
When presented with this, you posted "As I've said before you have no idea of the difficulties Rossi was facing. I'm sure he has had to do some things he was not proud of." (post no. 2001, November 13, 2017). As I said then and as I say now, no one forces you to commit fraud, especially on such a large scale, because you can't deliver. IH didn't force Rossi to create the fake JM and it is not as if the Doral project was close to being a success and Rossi invented the fake JM to get the project across the finish line. He invented the fake JM at the very beginning of the Doral project because the project could not go ahead, as structured by Rossi, without a legitimate purchaser.
The facts set forth above, along with much more, is undisputed. Those are some of the reasons why I felt comfortable then and feel comfortable now in publicly stating the Rossi is a fraud, a liar and a conman.
As to your ad nominem and boorish attacks, let me refresh your memory about this post of yours:
"You claim you are certain that Rossi is a fraud and various other things, that make me doubt you are a lawyer as you say."
This was, IIRC, long after AA had established my bona fides.
I stand by what I wrote. I'm not interested in rehashing it all again. Believe what you like.
I'll take a Mark H style bet with you too, as you are so certain.
@ JedRothwell,
As I have said many times, as far as I know, these test were independent. Rossi was not present. That's what the people who did the tests told me. And as I said, they used standard HVAC equipment, which inspires confidence. The gadget was on the same scale and power level as the one in the Italian factory, so this kind of equipment would have worked.
OK, thanks, it fits what you have already said (1-5).
I find this information very significant because they refer to a test where Rossi was not present. A big question rises about who performed the test. Beware, I'm not asking you to reveal their names, I just emphasize the importance of this missing aspect.
(1) http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg74920.html
(2) https://www.lenr-forum.com/for…r/?postID=24964#post24964
(3) https://www.lenr-forum.com/for…n/?postID=25410#post25410
(4) http://www.e-catworld.com/2016…hat-looks-like-it-worked/
(5) https://www.lenr-forum.com/for…s/?postID=42167#post42167
Rossi claims to have regulatory permissions for industrial versions of the E-Cat. Permission for industrial use is far easier than for domestic use.
If he has regulatory permission then he must have handed over his equipment to regulators, as Bob pointed out. So, your previous statement that it would be crazy for him to do this is invalid. Inoperative.
Bob is correct about this. Dozens of machines would have be handed over to government testing agencies and to UL before a single one can be sold. It would be a matter of public record that the machine was tested and certified. Some of the machines would be broken down. Every single component must be listed in the UL application form. It is not possible to sell machinery with secret components in the modern era.
There is not the slightest chance Rossi has submitted any of his machines for certification in any country.
Permission for industrial use is only marginally easier than consumer use. Safety laws and very thorough testing are called for in both cases.
Furthermore, if any agency, or the UL, or anyone else discovered that the device is producing more energy out than it consumes, they would realize it must be something like a nuclear reactor -- or something completely unknown to science. Either way, there is not the slightest chance -- not one in a billion -- that they would go ahead and approve the thing for public use. That would be extremely irresponsible! It is the last thing a government regulator would do. The regulators would demand that experts find the source of the energy and prove that it causes no harm and that it is fully controlled. It would have to be explained by theory. This will take thousands of man-hours of work in many of the world's top laboratories. It will cost billions of dollars. It may be as expensive as developing a self-driving car. Allowing a reactor that works by unknown principles would be like allowing a self-driving car that works with a new type of computer that no one has ever seen or tested before, and no one understands. That would be insane.
If it costs $1 billion or $100 billion to prepare cold fusion for the market and to ensure it is safe, that will be fine. That will be a trivial sum of money compared to what it saves in fuel cost and reduced pollution. It will save very roughly $1 billion per day, and ~50,000 lives per week.
I thought they settled. If a scam could really be "shown", that would hardly be the case in my opionion... So to me your presentation of an opinion as a "fact" looks mostly like classic labeling and consensus cracking. Ie the frequent use of the word "scammer", and opinion presented as fact "showed him to be"
Example: I rear end you and then you hit another person. I settle with you, give you money, we execute mutual releases and with no admission of liability. According to your logic, I can then go to the person you hit, albeit because I caused you to lurch forward, and say to that person, "I can't be liable because I settled." Doesn't exactly work that way. My settlement with you has no bearing on my liability to the third person (unless you agreed that you were liable in our settlement agreement). Scammer, conmen, securities frauds, etc. often enter into settlements, both civil and criminal, wherein they admit no liability. That way the settlement cannot be used as evidence of guilt, liability or as a confession or admission. This is a favorite tactic of mass tort cases in the initial stages, someone gets hurt by a prescribed, has a severe side effect which was not disclosed or was minimized, pharmaceutical company settles with plaintiff and they enter into a settlement agreement, with mutual releases, some money paid and a NDA (non disclosure/non disparagement). That way, additional plaintiffs don't know and/or can't talk about prior cases relating to the same drug/issue. IMNSHO, these should be illegal as against public policy.
All of Adrian's arguments make perfect sense under the assumption that Rossi is truthful and trustworthy. He accepts what Rossi claims as gospel without a shred of evidence, and rejects any criticism of Rossi's claims as being unproven. Given that jaw dropping world view, arguing with the man is a total waste of time. I hope at least that people enjoy doing it.
I stand by what I wrote. I'm not interested in rehashing it all again. Believe what you like.
I'll take a Mark H style bet with you too, as you are so certain.
Done. Name how much you are willing to lose and I will send a cashier's check, by UPS, of ten times that to Alan (up to a maximum of $50,000) to hold. You fail to send you cashier's check to Alan within ten calendar days of delivery of mine, Alan returns my check to me.
PS. If you prefer cash, let me know.
Display MoreIf he has regulatory permission then he must have handed over his equipment to regulators, as Bob pointed out. So, your previous statement that it would be crazy for him to do this is invalid. Inoperative.
Bob is correct about this. Dozens of machines would have be handed over to government testing agencies and to UL before a single one can be sold. It would be a matter of public record that the machine was tested and certified. Some of the machines would be broken down. Every single component must be listed in the UL application form. It is not possible to sell machinery with secret components in the modern era.
There is not the slightest chance Rossi has submitted any of his machines for certification in any country.
Permission for industrial use is only marginally easier than consumer use. Safety laws and very thorough testing are called for in both cases.
Furthermore, if any agency, or the UL, or anyone else discovered that the device is producing more energy out than it consumes, they would realize it must be something like a nuclear reactor -- or something completely unknown to science. Either way, there is not the slightest chance -- not one in a billion -- that they would go ahead and approve the thing for public use. That would be extremely irresponsible! It is the last thing a government regulator would do. The regulators would demand that experts find the source of the energy and prove that it causes no harm and that it is fully controlled. It would have to be explained by theory. This will take thousands of man-hours of work in many of the world's top laboratories. It will cost billions of dollars. It may be as expensive as developing a self-driving car. Allowing a reactor that works by unknown principles would be like allowing a self-driving car that works with a new type of computer that no one has ever seen or tested before, and no one understands. That would be insane.
If it costs $1 billion or $100 billion to prepare cold fusion for the market and to ensure it is safe, that will be fine. That will be a trivial sum of money compared to what it saves in fuel cost and reduced pollution. It will save very roughly $1 billion per day, and ~50,000 lives per week.
One more point on permits, etc. If you are selling to either commercial or consumer markets, your product has to be deemed safe enough for the insurance companies to allow it to be installed. No business is going to install a new, untried experimental process without a signoff from their insurer. Installing such a process without a signoff could cost them their insurance coverage. Bad juju.
Rossi claims to have regulatory permissions for industrial versions of the E-Cat. Permission for industrial use is far easier than for domestic use. I have had to obtain permission for all sorts of equipment, including furnaces, over the years. What is you experience?
The "test" will be whether it performs to specifications. Rossi has stated the buyer gets his money back if it fails to do so.
My experience? I have 30 years direct engineering and management experience in the automotive, structural cable and consumer product fields.
Anyone with any current knowledge of regulatory business, commercial or consumer, would realize what you are saying simply is not correct!
Yes, one plant could be sold and bought and operated, all by one person, just as Doaral was. But that does not make it a true sale nor is it really meaningful at all. Just the opposite..... it is highly indicative of fraud.
f he has regulatory permission then he must have handed over his equipment to regulators, as Bob pointed out. So, your previous statement that it would be crazy for him to do this is invalid. Inoperative.
My direct experience is that regulators for glass melting furnaces were only interested in the emissions and neither knew nor cared anything about the design.
Having had direct experience of furnaces leaking molten glass in the 1970s I knew how dangerous that could be. When I did a whole industry survey for GRI in the 1990s I was appalled to find how lax safety was in many plants. Many did not even provide water lances adjacent to the furnaces.
You are sadly mistaken that a manufacturer has to provide furnace(s) to the authorities to test. They don't. That is not how industry works.
I think it likely that government might want to inspect a 1 MW LENR installation, as that is new. They would probably measure the radiation levels before issuing an operating permit. If it were a high pressure operation there would be more inspection, but the first ones will probably not be high pressure for that reason.
A domestic E-Cat is a complete;y different story. In practice it would need a UL sticker and that would require samples being sent to their labs. Rossi says he has started this procedure but it will probably takes years.
Done. Name how much you are willing to lose and I will send a cashier's check, by UPS, of ten times that to Alan (up to a maximum of $50,000) to hold. You fail to send you cashier's check to Alan within ten calendar days of delivery of mine, Alan returns my check to me.
So the terms would be if Rossi produces commercial E-Cats by mid 2019 (my estimate of when it will happen) you will pay me $500. If he fails to do so I will pay you $50. (It could be pounds if you prefer),
We will both send undated checks to Alan Smith if he agrees to hold them and act as referee.
By copy of this post will Alan please be kind enough to reply.
So the terms would be if Rossi produces commercial E-Cats by mid 2019 (my estimate of when it will happen) you will pay me $500. If he fails to do so I will pay you $50. (It could be pounds if you prefer),
We will both send undated checks to Alan Smith if he agrees to hold them and act as referee.
By copy of this post will Alan please be kind enough to reply.
You might want to clarify what "produces commercial e-cats" means to avoid future arguments.
I think you didn't understand the economics of Mark H's proposal. The offered you 10:1 odds and you want even money. If you want to do even money, I will bet $20,000 against Rossi.
I understood the proposal but put it at even odds to emphasize what I think are the chances of Rossi having a product to purchase.
When I was younger I likely would
have bet the $20,000 but being close
to retirement I am more cautious.
I do plan on investing in Leonardo
Corporation if it goes on the stock market.
