Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]


    If they had tuned the water flow to 1,500 l/h, for whatever reason, and it's +1% off, or +15 l/h, it takes 3 days before the difference in readings, delta, goes from 36 m3 to 37 m3:


    0 d : 0
    1 d x 24 h/d x 1515 l/h = 036.360 m3 => reading: 36; delta: 36
    2 d x 24 h/d x 1515 l/h = 072.720 m3 => reading: 72; delta: 36
    3 d x 24 h/d x 1515 l/h = 109.080 m3 => reading: 109; delta: 37
    4 d x 24 h/d x 1515 l/h = 145.440 m3 => reading: 145; delta: 36
    5 d x 24 h/d x 1515 l/h = 181.800 m3 => reading: 181; delta: 36


    If it's 1,500 l/h +-1%, who knows how long the series of 36'es will be?


    But yeah, I've assumes exact 24 h between readings and I've no idea about the possible precision for the water flow.

    So, someone managed to keep a daily flow between 36000 and 36999 on most days and a couple times between 14 and 30 days in a row. Doesn't seem like it would deserve a Nobel prize imo? What do you think should be the probability that the flow would be outside of a +/- 500 range?


    Why would Rossi not aim to have a constant flow rate? What does he gain from having a variable rate?


    Why would he not record at the same exact time every day?




    Re: daylight savings: why would anyone run such a year long experiment with 363 days @ 24 hours, 1 day @ 23 hours, and 1 day @ 25 hours?


    You don't even have to use GMT, all you have to do is take your measurement at 9pm vs 8pm when the clock changes. Or not even bother switching clocks.



    Penon explains in the report why they remove 10%. You might think it is silly, but it has nothing to do with the accuracy of the data.




    I don't think the flow rate data is inherently suspicious. What's concerning is if it was Rossi gathering all the data, the same Rossi that made up a customer.

    The below deposition by Penon is what concerns me most regarding the flowrate (other than placement of the water meter).


    Looks like Penon made sure the total flow was correct every few months. That's a bit light, and we know that Rossi is capable of pulling shenanigans.


    Rossi ran the show, and this makes for yet another non-independent validation.



    Q Okay. Okay. Column six, "effective
    21 flowed water". How was that measured?
    22 A Through the measure of the water power.
    23 Q Was that the flowmeter?
    24 A The flow meter, yes.
    25 Q How did you retrieve the data from the
    Page 109
    1 flowmeter?
    2 A Datas were read every night by Dr. Rossi
    3 and Rossi had to report them in the -- in the log --
    4 in the logbook and every night it was transmitted in
    5 this data.
    6 Q Did you have any way to verify the data
    7 that Dr. Rossi was providing you?
    8 A The correctness of the data?
    9 Q Yes.
    10 A When I visited to the Doral plant one of
    11 the controls that I wanted to make is the
    12 reconciliation between the data transmitted by Rossi
    13 and the data relieved in the -- in the meter.
    14 Q So you would reconcile the data provided
    15 by Dr. Rossi with the change from your last visit,
    16 the change in water flow?
    17 A With the relevant data in the opportunity
    18 of my business

    Quote from LENR Calender

    Why would Rossi not aim to have a constant flow rate? What does he gain from having a variable rate?

    Okay, then why did it suddenly start to vary in June? What changed? My guess is that he started writing down the real numbers.


    Mind you, the actual flow rate was much smaller, because the pipe was mostly empty. Those may be the numbers shown on the meter, although I doubt the flow rate fell by EXACTLY half, but there is no way those are the actual flow rates.

    Quote from LENR Calender

    Why would he not record at the same exact time every day?

    Penon says he did it every evening. So, he was there at the same time every evening, including Sundays, for months? I doubt it.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Okay, then why did it suddenly start to vary in June? What changed? My guess is that he started writing down the real numbers.


    Mind you, the actual flow rate was much smaller, because the pipe was mostly empty. Those may be the numbers shown on the meter, although I doubt the flow rate fell by EXACTLY half, but there is no way those are the actual flow rates.

    Penon says he did it every evening. So, he was there at the same time every evening, including Sundays, for months? I doubt it.




    I have assumed that when the flow rate is 27000 or 18000, only 3 out of 4 (or half) of the reactors are working.


    Issues with the actual flow rate and water meter placement are relevant.


    I don't have doubts that Rossi was there every evening, every day at the same hours for 350+ days doing whatever was needed to either make sure the plant worked or make it seem it worked.

    Rossi's facility in Doral had 3 second story windows. Rossi claims to have used one of those windows with fans in the lower two lites to vent hot air out. The address of the facility is 7861 NW 46th St, Doral, FL 33166.


    Wong's expert disclosure http://coldfusioncommunity.net…7/01/0233.3_Exhibit_C.pdf Exhibit A-2 shows a picture of this window. Rossi claims this is the middle window. Wong claims the picture is the window from which the hot air was vented and that in the picture it doesn't have any panes of glass in the window because it was being repaired.


    Attachment 1 is a Google Street View from April 2015 of those three windows. Attachment 2 is a Google Street View from April 2015 from a different angle.


    Which window do you think Exhibit A-2 from Wong's expert disclosure shows--the window behind the vegetation or the one to the right of it?

    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    Peter Metz ,

    See: Rossi vs. Darden developments - Part 2


    That's what I was thinking from the picture. So there are 2 4 lite windows to the left of the entrance and one 6 lite window over the entrance for a total of three windows on the second story. The Wong exhibit window looks like the one on the right closest to the door not above it, the one you and Rossi are calling the middle window. (The lawyers had Rossi circle the window so there will be no confusion in the trial.)


    So then the Google Street View from April 2015 clearly shows that there are no fans on the lower lites of the middle window. The window is intact. Wong testified that all the lite panes were removed and that there were two fans in the lower panes (194-06, pg 102). Even the window behind the tree is partially visible and it doesn't appear to have any fans.


    Am I mistaken?


    Edit: Cleaned up window references.

    ele has suggested that there was a way for Penon to keep tabs on the data: "Jack we are in the Internet century. Industrial plants and experiment can be monitored from long distance. The ERV had to be present just to set up the data taking system then the fulll data was recorded and was possible for him…" Has anyone seen a description of a data collection system in the court docs?

    Peter Metz ,


    LOL and OMG!

    The window panes were being replaced, according to Wong, Feb 10, 2017. Almost a year after the Plant was shut down.


    From 194-06, transcript pg 105 (Wong as witness, in bold):


    6 A. Yes, but there was definitely no panes


    7 when I was there.


    8 Q. Okay. And this one -- and this one is


    9 actually --


    10 A. But it was being worked on, because there


    11 were two workmen waiting for me to take the photo.


    12 I had to say, "Get out of the way." I don't know


    13 what they were working on.


    14 Q. You have -- you have no idea -- you don't


    15 have any firsthand basis to know whether there


    16 were -- whether there was glass in those windows


    17 prior to February 10th of 2017, correct?


    18 A. Before and after those 20 minutes I was in


    19 that room, I don't know what was happening.

    20 Q. And those 20 minutes were February 10th of


    21 2017, correct? I need a verbal response.


    22 A. Yes.

    ..................................................................................


    As for the fans.... from 194-06, transcript page 102....


    10 Q. Looking at your report, question one is


    11 did you see those two fans?


    12 A. No.


    13 Q. Did you ask to see the two fans?


    14 A. No. I did ask about the design of the


    15 heat exchanger and how the pipes were laid out.


    16 Q. And you asked that of Andrea Rossi?


    17 A. Right.


    18 Q. And he provided you the explanation?


    19 A. Verbally, yes.


    20 Q. Okay. I understand.


    I didn't realize the date of Wong's pictures! Rossi says he's converting that upstairs space to an office. What a coincidence that the 20 minutes Wong happened to be there they were fixing those windows!


    There is so many holes here that I don't know where to start. But if we are right about the window then Rossi never vented the heat out that window using fans. And he probably set Wong up to make it look like it was. Is is criminal to mislead your expert witness by staging a scene or to lie during the deposition?


    I'm pretty sure that IH's lawyers know about this deception based on the questioning they did with Rossi (numerous times) about the window and Wong. There is no wiggle room here. I hope they already have or see the April 2015 Street View of that window. That should pretty much be the nail in the coffin on the 1MW heat.

    Peter Metz ,

    There were many visitors to the Doral warehouse. Any of them arriving at the front door could have noticed if there were fans/venting/missing glass, on their way in. Maybe there are some photos of the front taken by visitors.

    I wonder if any glass was missing when that guy that posted a bunch of photos of the building on ECW visited the site. He was there shortly after the lawsuit was filed. (I'll have to scrounge for a date on that).

    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    Peter Metz ,

    There were many visitors to the Doral warehouse. Any of them arriving at the front door could have noticed if there were fans/venting/missing glass, on their way in. Maybe there are some photos of the front taken by visitors.

    I wonder if any glass was missing when that guy that posted a bunch of photos of the building on ECW visited the site. He was there shortly after the lawsuit was filed. (I'll have to scrounge for a date on that).


    No I looked it up. He had a picture of the front door but mostly of the back. There was also a picture of Rossi's car in the front (in the comments) but it was to small and undated. That's when I went to Google Street View. But you are right, there are probably other pictures but it's pretty clear from Google that there are no fans in those windows.


    Here is the ECW link: http://www.e-catworld.com/2016…t-address/comment-page-1/

    Also, regarding the fans, Rossi (I think as representative for JMP) in a deposition from the recent giant batch, explained that he had modified the fans to ... move a fluid... to move air... for a new ...secret thing.


    (Possibly a thing that also used or was involved with the former Wong et al. heat exchanger pipes.)


    Google images furniture made of pipesand you may find there a beauty made with conjoined radiators...

    Quote from sigmoidal

    And I think if you can't see the difference between this alleged two-bit, three man con and theories of vast conspiracies (even if they might possibly exist in some manner unrelated to Rossi) that shows 'extreme' lack of discernment.

    I can see the difference, but it is one of degree not of kind. My problem is with the attitude that a deep state conspiracy against such a potentially revolutionary technology is just completely absurd in principle, which is the impression I've gotten from many posts here.


    But I agree with you: I have seen no direct evidence indicating that the deep state is conspiring to discredit Rossi. I do believe there is evidence that Darden and JT conspired to get investor's money on false pretenses, though it is not as strong as the evidence for Rossi's fraud. But you know, they can both be true -- Rossi can be a fraud and IH could have defrauded its investors. Those are not mutually opposed possibilities.

    IH's spoliation document (194.0) is interesting to me, even though it was shot down by the judge.


    IH states that: "There are no photographs of this alleged heat exchanger. Rossi Dep. 235:5-9; 238:3-240:6; Leonardo Dep. 269:18-271:21; JMP Dep. 114:14-117:12; 120:9-124:25 [Ex. 8]."


    However, none of the cited references say there are no photographs of the heat exchanger. I'm not saying there are extant photographs (I don't know whether there are or not), I'm just saying that the cited portions of the depositions don't support IH's proposition of there being no photographs.


    IH goes on to state: "There are no receipts for the equipment Plaintiffs allegedly used to build the heat exchanger (including for the piping, the fans or the wood housing in the second story room). Leonardo Dep. 266:16-267:4; JMP Dep. 142:5-143:4; 144:20-145:23; 157:22-158:2."


    However, none of the cited references say there are no receipts for the equipment used to build the heat exchanger. In fact, in the first cite, Rossi testifies that Leonardo paid for the pipes used in the heat exchanger, and that he supposes there are records reflecting those purchases. Then on page 267, Rossi testifies that there are records reflecting purchases of the fans. In the next cite (to the JMP deposition), Rossi testifies that his accountant should have receipts for the pump/recirculator. On page 144-145 of the JMP deposition, Rossi testifies that the piping was purchased from Home Depot, and that he has an accounting for that. On pages 157-158 of the JMP deposition, Rossi testifies that the wood used for the heat exchanger was purchased from Home Depot and another supplier.


    So how IH was able to draw the conclusions that it did based on the cited references to the various depositions is beyond me.


    I'm not impressed by the JMP ruse. But in equal measure, I'm not impressed with how IH is characterizing the situation.

    Quote from PeterMetz

    Rossi's facility in Doral had 3 second story windows. Rossi claims to have used one of those windows with fans in the lower two lites to vent hot air out....

    Attachment 1 is a Google Street View from April 2015 of those three windows. Attachment 2 is a Google Street View from April 2015 from a different angle.


    This is by far the most devastating and dispositive evidence against Rossi that I've seen so far. I don't see how he can weasel out of this. Assuming its admissible in court, he's toast. I am surprised that IH did not include this as evidence in its spoliation motion.

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.