Demonstration of the E-Cat QX - 24 November - Summary thread

  • A big spike in voltage is pretty much neccesary in order to strike a plasma across a gap. With no gap, a strike-hold power supply may sense the low resistance (compared to a gap) and not fire the initial voltage spike. This might be a safety feature, or might simply be not possible without the "air" gap.

    Xenon is the arc helper. It reduces the arc maintaining voltage.

    A plasma can be started by striking. That is have physical contact, say a fusible link so that once a given higher voltage vaporizes the link the plasma can start.

  • The argument previously for Rossi to abandon 5 years of R&D on ecats and move to this new device is that it was so much technically superior that this made sense. This argument has its issues. However, in the light of this demo, I'm wondering whether you still see the new device is superior to the old ones?

    The QX is an order of magnitude better than any known previous reactor.

    Consider its small size, that it can be instantly switched on and off, that it has a COP 500 - 1000. It can operate at 2300 C for up to a year.

    Rossi can hope to get money from one-off big pocket investors who buy his "the establishment has it in for me" story, and are foolish. There have always been foolish rich people.

    You and Jed make a fine couple. You both think you could easily verify the performance of the QX but anyone else, particularly if they are rich, are too dumb to do so.

    I know I could. Just putting an oscilloscope across the reactor would answer most of the critics here and would be one of the first things to do.


    The idea of the demo was to show the performance of the QX, not verify it worked in a scientific way. It is not possible to do the latter without giving away Rossi's IP. The only thing that concerns me is whether the dimensions of the reactor are in mm or cm. If mm, it seems too small to me.

  • Rends

    The new version has had its audio muted off from 0:55:00 to about 1:45:00. I should have downloaded it as soon as it was available because some exchanges between Rossi and other people, both in Italian and English, were interesting, but unfortunately I didn't transcribe them all right away.

  • The big question for me is: Where does the heat to be removed from the controller box come from?


    Look at this Q&A on Rossiblog:


    Sommer

    November 25, 2017 at 1:22 PM

    You have discussed before that the demo would be doable with batteries as the only sorce. Would such a configuration have the same need for massive cooling?



    • Andrea Rossi

    November 25, 2017 at 1:55 PM

    Sommer:

    Yes.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    Sommer

    November 25, 2017 at 2:03 PM

    First of all:

    Congrats for Your big sucsess!

    And many Thanks for Your quick answer to my question.

    After the impressive demo many followers speculate about the source of the heat in the controls.

    Do You have a hint for us what the reason may be, after the possibiliy of heat traveling trouh the wires was excluded?

    • Andrea Rossi

    November 25, 2017 at 2:31 PM

    Sommer:

    I am very sorry, but that would force me to explain confidential particulars.

    Thank you for your kind attention to our work.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.



    So the massive heat would even be there if the controller operated on batteries only. Has anyone any idea (exept the usual shoutings of fraud from the known parties)?

  • Adrian Ashfield: “The QX is an order of magnitude better than any known previous reactor.

    Consider its small size, that it can be instantly switched on and off, that it has a COP 500 - 1000. It can operate at 2300 C for up to a year.”


    As a scientist, you must have some good reason to say these things. Can you provide evidence for these remarkable claims?

  • The QX is an order of magnitude better than any known previous reactor.

    Consider its small size, that it can be instantly switched on and off, that it has a COP 500 - 1000. It can operate at 2300 C for up to a year.


    let say.... to switch you need to open the box, not as fast as you say :-D



    2:31:08 Fabiani is telling to Rossi: LO SWITCH (the switch)

  • did mention that earlier in this thread citing non-LENR references (1, 2) and personal observations. During high current DC arc discharges tests the positive wire would heat up significantly more than the negative wire. I don't know if this is really related to what Rossi observed, but it reminded me of that (although only by loose association). In my case in some tests at higher current than normal I had to periodically invert wire polarity to not melt the connectors and wire insulation, but it was mostly my fault since I used cheap and undersized equipment (not to mention improvised).


    Interesting phenomenon I was not aware of. Your experience and references are also interesting. I remember that at some point Rossi reported (in jonp via ECW maybe) trying to figure out wire overheating problem and also Matts now mentioned it in his presentation before Rossi corrected him that he has solved that one.


    Phenomenon you experienced (and discussed in references) must occur in pretty much higher power levels (lke >30A), but phenomenon is there. Could it be that plasma enhanced with LENR reaction makes same phenomenon but causes much bigger amounts of electrons to flow to positive electrode (so by mW:s input you generate 10s of W:s worth of electrical energy) or something? That would also explain why Rossi has claimed to be able to produce electricity directly with QX.


  • let say.... to switch you need to open the box, not as fast as you say :-D


    2:31:08 Fabiani is telling to Rossi: LO SWITCH (the switch)


    This is the ridiculous excuse invented now by the King of Hoax :D :D :D


    • Andrea Rossi November 26, 2017 at 9:45 AM

      Sam:

      I checked what you say, it is between the time 2h 30′ and 2h 31′.

      I opened an air window to help the air circulation since when the E-Cat has been tiurned off the cooling system was disconnected. After 2 hours of work and after the operation of the spectrometer without cooling circulation in the heat exchanger I wanted to help the hot air out.

      This has nothing to do with the measurements we were making.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

    JoNP means Journal of Null-Physics (the house of hoax,trickery, junk and psychopathological science).

  • Overheating of the control box:

    Combine the statements from Dott. Rossi:

    Reached sigma 5 (Rossi on JONP, only Rossi knows, was that means)

    At the show:

    Running the 3 QXs only at 30% (Rossi at the show, because safety, bla bla) / Yes, Adrian, this is correct, watch the video

    Control box has 60W

    One QX has 20W, at the show 3 QX -> 60W, Control box still getting hot

    100% run not possible.

    In my opinion: It's a electric heater and light show, added with some hocky pokey with the scope and a spectrometer.
    There is no excess heat. All power comes from the box, nothing from the "reactor".

  • Interesting phenomenon I was not aware of. Your experience and references are also interesting. I remember that at some point Rossi reported (in jonp via ECW maybe) trying to figure out wire overheating problem and also Matts now mentioned it in his presentation before Rossi corrected him that he has solved that one.


    In the now muted section of the video at about 1:34:00 there was a short exchange between Rossi and Lewan; I took some notes and transcribed a few phrases when the video was still online. From what Rossi said it seemed like the problem at the wires was due to something "returning back" from the reactor, I assume electricity. He solved the problem with the wires, but the PSU still had an " enormous excess heat problem" that had to be handled with cooling fans (I think that's what he said). Unfortunately I can't check again and I don't remember what else he said exactly there.


    Quote

    [1:34:00] electric cables, Lewan says they're not hot


    [Rossi]: allora ti spiego: il problema del ritorno dei cavi ce l'avevamo e l'abbiamo risolto in un altro modo. Il problema invece dell'eccesso di calore enorme che si forma qui dentro, quello lo dobbiamo gestire con i ventil[-atori?] ...


    [Rossi]: il problema dei cavi quando te l'ho detto era quello. Avevamo tutti e due i problemi, poi però l'abbiamo risolto …



    Phenomenon you experienced (and discussed in references) must occur in pretty much higher power levels (lke >30A), but phenomenon is there. Could it be that plasma enhanced with LENR reaction makes same phenomenon but causes much bigger amounts of electrons to flow to positive electrode (so by mW:s input you generate 10s of W:s worth of electrical energy) or something? That would also explain why Rossi has claimed to be able to produce electricity directly with QX.


    Indeed when I saw (and smelled) wire insulation melting I was using currents in the order of 30A and above.


    Even without taking into account any LENR occurring, only large currents, if one could solve the problem on one side by using thicker wires with as few connection points as possible, it would still have to be handled by the power supply or some sort of circuit (e.g. flyback diode as Ahlfors suggested), which will produce heat in the process. So it could have been a related problem, but I'm absolutely no electric engineer.


  • Mats' comment:

    Quote

    Didn’t notice this. Not good.

    I discussed the dummy tests with Rossi two months before the demo. Shortly before the demo Rossi only wanted to do the short circuit test, not the 800 ohm, since the waveform would be altered in a way that would reveal sensible information, he said. I told him that in that case it was meaningless to do the test at all. He came back a few days later and said he would do it.

    Whatever adjustment he did before the dummy test, legitimate or not, it’s a serious problem. The input measurement was already weak as it was. Now I suppose the only conclusive test would be to repeat the measurements when he has a developed control system that doesn’t need cooling so you can measure COP of the whole system.

  • Quote

    You should factor in to your answer the fact (stated by Rossi, so tendentious, but I'll admit it) that Rossi does not have certification for any markets except industrial and would therefore aim at industrial commercialisation. Just as what he was claiming to do during the IH test.

    Rossi has no real certification of ANY kind. All he has is a worthless SELF certification. No reputable organization would give him a certificate.


    Quote

    Rossi can hope to get money from one-off big pocket investors who buy his "the establishment has it in for me" story, and are foolish. There have always been foolish rich people.

    Sure. But in this case, there is not only the internet data and discussion of Rossi's past experiments and Krivit's meticulous summary of his criminal past. Now, there is an extensive record in the form of sworn depositions of Rossi's one year record of consistent lying, evasion and failure with IH who had EVERY REASON to make the ecat work and none at all not to. Anyone who gives him millions in the light of that history and without new, proper, independent testing DESERVES to be defrauded because they are so monumentally stupid, negligent and incompetent that it's hard to imagine it. The only things Rossi can hope for are that 1) the pretrial stuff is too voluminous and complex to bother with and 2) some sort of bizarro conspiracy theory to account for the rest of Rossi's sorry history. And yes, somebody with money may be dumb enough to give some to him! Wow!


    Quote

    TTH wrote: Alan, I don't see any material difference between us in analysis of this test (maybe I am wrong?).

    I don't think Alan made any analysis of the "test" and I don't expect him to even give an opinion on its validity. It would not be his style, IMO.

  • I wonder if it could be as simple as just there is an air leak to the tube and the electrodes are consumable- That is just burning the electrodes. It wouldn't take much to keep 20W of heat going for an hour by chemistry.


    That's a really easy trick, not! You try doing it, I have with iron, carbon. tungsten. Impossible to control and in this case, how would the electrode gap be maintained as they burnt away at a precise speed? And where does the smoke go? That is the really tricky part. No midgets inside the pipe.

    • Quote
      Mats Lewan said..

      "I discussed the dummy tests with Rossi two months before the demo. Shortly before the demo Rossi only wanted to do the short circuit test, not the 800 ohm, since the waveform would be altered in a way that would reveal sensible information, he said. I told him that in that case it was meaningless to do the test at all. He came back a few days later and said he would do it.

      Whatever adjustment he did before the dummy test, legitimate or not, it’s a serious problem. The input measurement was already weak as it was. Now I suppose the only conclusive test would be to repeat the measurements when he has a developed control system that doesn’t need cooling so you can measure COP of the whole system."

    Well said that man and entirely correct.

  • can ,

    Standard plasma lighting technology uses AC to equalize wear on the the electrodes, and balance the heat from end to end. In automotive use, bulbs (and ballasts) last typically 3+ times longer using AC output compared to DC output. (Aftermarket retrofit cheap ballasts are almost all DC, because they are cheap to build. Factory automobile systems are exclusively AC output.)


    Some DC plasma systems reverse the direction from the last at each new start (mostly to keep Hg, etc from accumulating at one end). Some arcs are cone shaped due to electrons repelling each other, so the DC electrodes are configured as a sharp point opposite a larger cylinder to equalize heat.

  • Quote

    You both think you could easily verify the performance of the QX but anyone else, particularly if they are rich, are too dumb to do so.

    I know I could. Just putting an oscilloscope across the reactor would answer most of the critics here and would be one of the first things to do

    First thing to do indeed... so why didn't Rossi do it? Oh... I know. Doesn't want to give away IP, right, Adrian. So how would that give away IP? What sort of IP that couldn't be easily discovered anyway would be given away with a scope picture? What about Rossi's extensive patent collection? Why wouldn't that protect his IP like patents do everyone else's?


    Quote

    There is some proof from the demonstration about the performance of the QX. There is no proof from the critics who are just speculating about possibilities. Wait for more facts.

    How long, Adrian? Six years of evasion and lies and cheating investors isn't enough for you to draw conclusions? Wow.


    The whole discussion about an overheating power supply is specious and idiotic. Power supplies have been around for centuries. Modern power supplies don't overheat unless they are misused. So Rossi has technology to produce plasma fusion on a desktop and he can't figure out how to use a properly rated power supply? And how to remote it away from the equipment so the heat from the power supply isn't confounded with the heat from the experiment? Seriously? ANYONE believes that? This entire caper is approaching Nigerian scams in its transparency to anyone who can think enough to dress themselves in the morning.

  • It is an obvious fact (as mentioned above) that Fabiani flips a switch in the control box at time 2:31:08 before the 800 ohm test.

    This alone invalidates the whole demo and is a strong indication of foul play.


    There is also a gaping hole in the logic that prevents measuring the voltage over the reactor.

    The given reason for this is that such a measurement could reveal sensitive information about the operation of the gadget.

    At the same time Rossi has told us over and over again that the reactor essentially is an electric short with zero resistance.

    To me this indicates that the secret that must not be revealed is that the voltage is anything but zero.

  • drian, considering the statements you are making about the QX, why aren't YOU waiting for more facts?

    I don't need more facts to know what the claims are. As I said, whether trickery was involved will have to wait for due diligence or sale of working units.

    Can't you parse simple English?


    Lots of anonymous crap. Are you ashamed to put your name below what you write?

  • Paradigmnoia

    For what it's worth, in twin carbon arc welding too (the closest thing to the tests/experiments I did) it's a known fact that AC makes for an even electrode wear compared to using DC.


    Rossi is applying a DC arc (even if with an AC component), so one of his electrodes will wear faster than the other at any given time.

  • He says not an arc- a plasma. Appeared to me to be started with an arc, and ended with an arc of opposite polarity from a look at the scope shots. But not a continuous arc - there is a good chance the mocrophones would have got the EM from that - or drom the un-shielded wiring - and the start and finish spark was audible and quite visible on the RHS of the front row, as I suspect an arc would have been.