Quote from Alan Smith

There is no need to discourage replication, but more to view it as the welcome joining in of another potential helper.

I didn't mean it! Of course it is an excellent thing having people engaged in replications and experiments, the point was that at the beginning we all were more focused on verifying the reality of the effect that to understand it. Your multitude of experiments for example, in my view are actual explorative experiments, not just "replications". Needless to say, in any cases exploratory research need to starts from simple replication...

Quote from Wyttenbach

I gave you two reason that teh figure of >10eV is wrong.

The answer was partial, because it didn't include all other observed cases, such as N2, O2 and other gases, that actually get ionised as well.

Quote from Wyttenbach

1) Most porous surfaces show Rydberg electrons that are bound below temperature level. E.g. n=60 or = few micro volt.

Please elaborate on that, providing a counter-experiment. Sometimes theoretician tend to be a little "apodictic": please give me experiment that can prove or disprove certain hypothesis, otherwise they can be classified just as "opinions".

Quote from Wyttenbach

2) In a solution the H-H separation voltage is 10x lower. All surfaces behave solution like if you don't work under e.g. Argon/Nitrogen as there always is air with hydrogen.

Sorry, I didn't get it...

Also, if the phenomenon is so explainable, can you provide other examples (known or specially made) where you get the same behaviors?

Quote from Stevenson

The answer was partial, because it didn't include all other observed cases, such as N2, O2 and other gases, that actually get ionised as well.

Rydberg electrons are quasi free to attach any molecule. A thermal collision is enough to activate it.

Quote from Stevenson

Your multitude of experiments for example, in my view are actual explorative experiments, not just "replications". Needless to say, in any cases exploratory research need to starts from simple replication...

Of course. I think any experimenter would start with a simple replication and if that worked progress to more elaborate tests. My ppt presentation at IWAHLM was about encouraging those with access to students to let them replicate using safe and inexpensive methods.

I've been thinking a little more about the possible VUV (Vacuum Ultraviolet) activity of some LEC working electrodes...

To recap: the VUV band is from 10 nm (124 eV) to 200 nm (6.2 eV). It isn't often detected on earth, as stellar VUV is blocked by the atmosphere. I understand the VUV band is also below the lowest energy level detectable in magicsound 's modified electron microscope (which was used on a WE sample obtained from Frank Gordon).

The Lyman series (spectral lines for hydrogen) is contained within the VUV band. Interestingly, the limit of the Lyman series is 91.2 nm (13.6 eV). This is the energy to ionise the hydrogen atom, and also the energy of the recombination photon ejected when an H⁺ ion fully captures an electron. It is usually claimed that interstellar hydrogen ions, atoms, and electrons are kept in equilibrium, by the continual exchange of 13.6 eV photons. i.e:

What if a similar situation exists between hydrogen ions and atomic hydrogen when suspended within the electron clouds of a metal lattice? If one H⁺ ion "grabs" an electron from the lattice clouds, it will emit a 13.6 eV photon - and that photon could stimulate another existing hydrogen atom to reject its electron and return to the ionised state.

If no photons escaped from the surface of the Working Electrode (maybe due to internal reflection), then there could be a continual exchange of photons between the hydrogen atoms/ions trapped inside the lattice, keeping ions and atoms in equilibrium. You could say that the WE was "buzzing", to coin a phrase

However, some of these 13.6 eV photons are likely to escape from the surface of the WE - into the surrounding gas. It seems that the first ionisation energy for O₂ molecules is only 12.2 eV - so an escaping photon could ionise any oxygen molecules in the gas. (We know air works well in a LEC, although it is corrosive)

This effect might be able to continue until all the hydrogen ions inside the lattice have become neutral atoms, and the buzzing eventually stops. The rate of buzzing decay might depend on the ease by which the 13.6 eV photons can leave the surface of the WE - so surface texture (possibly defects around 90 nm in size, maybe?) might have an effect.

This certainly can't "explain" all of the odd behaviours seen in the LEC tests (especially with some of the "outlier" materials), but this mechanism (if it exists) might possibly be involved in some.

This is just a thought. You can ignore it if you want.

Quote from Frogfall

I've been thinking a little more about the possible VUV (Vacuum Ultraviolet) activity of some LEC working electrodes...

To recap: the VUV band is from 10 nm (124 eV) to 200 nm (6.2 eV). It isn't often detected on earth, as stellar VUV is blocked by the atmosphere. I understand the VUV band is also below the lowest energy level detectable in magicsound 's modified electron microscope (which was used on a WE sample obtained from Frank Gordon).

The Lyman series (spectral lines for hydrogen) is contained within the VUV band. Interestingly, the limit of the Lyman series is 91.2 nm (13.6 eV). This is the energy to ionise the hydrogen atom, and also the energy of the recombination photon ejected when an H⁺ ion fully captures an electron. It is usually claimed that interstellar hydrogen ions, atoms, and electrons are kept in equilibrium, by the continual exchange of 13.6 eV photons. i.e:

What if a similar situation exists between hydrogen ions and atomic hydrogen when suspended within the electron clouds of a metal lattice? If one H⁺ ion "grabs" an electron from the lattice clouds, it will emit a 13.6 eV photon - and that photon could stimulate another existing hydrogen atom to reject its electron and return to the ionised state.

If no photons escaped from the surface of the Working Electrode (maybe due to internal reflection), then there could be a continual exchange of photons between the hydrogen nuclei trapped inside the lattice, keeping ions and atoms in equilibrium. You could say that the WE was "buzzing", to coin a phrase

However, some of these 13.6 eV photons are likely to escape from the surface of the WE - into the surrounding gas. It seems that the first ionisation energy for O₂ molecules is only 12.2 eV - so an escaping photon could ionise any oxygen molecules in the gas. (We know air works well in a LEC, although it is corrosive)

This effect might be able to continue until all the hydrogen ions inside the lattice have become neutral atoms, and the buzzing eventually stops. The rate of buzzing decay might depend on the ease by which the 13.6 eV photons can leave the surface of the WE - so surface texture (possibly defects around 90 nm in size, maybe?) might have an effect.

This certainly can't "explain" all of the odd behaviours seen in the LEC tests (especially with some of the "outlier" materials), but this mechanism (if it exists) might possibly be involved in some.

This is just a thought. You can ignore it if you want.

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All thoughts are welcome if they are intended to solve the LEC puzzle. This indeed may explain part of the phenomena, but to explain the X ray fogging something else must be happening.

Quote from Curbina

but to explain the X ray fogging something else must be happening.

Be careful not to conflate the reported results of different experiments, using different materials, and different loading regimes.

As far as I am aware, no X-rays have been detected coming from a LEC WE. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Quote from Frogfall

Be careful not to conflate the reported results of different experiments, using different materials, and different loading regimes.

As far as I am aware, no X-rays have been detected coming from a LEC WE. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Indeed, and X ray weren’t detected by the people at BARC either, I mean, by other method than the X ray fogging, and they really looked for them with all the sensors they had.

About conflating different materials and loading methods, I think that if you read thoroughly the paper from Rout et al, and see Alan Smith ‘s presentation at IWHALM , you will notice that the effect is probably much more widespread than one might initially suspect. I agree with the phrase Bob Greenyer used to say often “it’s all the same thing”.

O2 AND N2 are directly "linked" with VUV frequencies.

If you do a LENR VUV plasma you will go directly into space by this way my friend.

Quote from Frogfall

I've been thinking a little more about the possible VUV (Vacuum Ultraviolet) activity of some LEC working electrodes...

To recap: the VUV band is from 10 nm (124 eV) to 200 nm (6.2 eV). It isn't often detected on earth, as stellar VUV is blocked by the atmosphere. I understand the VUV band is also below the lowest energy level detectable in magicsound 's modified electron microscope (which was used on a WE sample obtained from Frank Gordon).

The Lyman series (spectral lines for hydrogen) is contained within the VUV band. Interestingly, the limit of the Lyman series is 91.2 nm (13.6 eV). This is the energy to ionise the hydrogen atom, and also the energy of the recombination photon ejected when an H⁺ ion fully captures an electron. It is usually claimed that interstellar hydrogen ions, atoms, and electrons are kept in equilibrium, by the continual exchange of 13.6 eV photons. i.e:

What if a similar situation exists between hydrogen ions and atomic hydrogen when suspended within the electron clouds of a metal lattice? If one H⁺ ion "grabs" an electron from the lattice clouds, it will emit a 13.6 eV photon - and that photon could stimulate another existing hydrogen atom to reject its electron and return to the ionised state.

If no photons escaped from the surface of the Working Electrode (maybe due to internal reflection), then there could be a continual exchange of photons between the hydrogen nuclei trapped inside the lattice, keeping ions and atoms in equilibrium. You could say that the WE was "buzzing", to coin a phrase

However, some of these 13.6 eV photons are likely to escape from the surface of the WE - into the surrounding gas. It seems that the first ionisation energy for O₂ molecules is only 12.2 eV - so an escaping photon could ionise any oxygen molecules in the gas. (We know air works well in a LEC, although it is corrosive)

This effect might be able to continue until all the hydrogen ions inside the lattice have become neutral atoms, and the buzzing eventually stops. The rate of buzzing decay might depend on the ease by which the 13.6 eV photons can leave the surface of the WE - so surface texture (possibly defects around 90 nm in size, maybe?) might have an effect.

This certainly can't "explain" all of the odd behaviours seen in the LEC tests (especially with some of the "outlier" materials), but this mechanism (if it exists) might possibly be involved in some.

This is just a thought. You can ignore it if you want.

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Quote from Curbina

the effect is probably much more widespread than one might initially suspect.

I've been wrestling with some of the effects for nearly 40 years - but it was called hydrogen embrittlement 

Quote from Curbina

“it’s all the same thing”

Quote from Charles Fort (Wild Talents)

“I had used all except peach labels. I pasted the peach labels on peach cans, and then came to apricots. Well, aren't apricots peaches? And there are plums that are virtually apricots. I went on, either mischievously, or scientifically, pasting the peach labels on cans of plums, cherries, string beans, and succotash. I can't quite define my motive, because to this day it has not been decided whether I am a humourist or a scientist. I think that it was mischief, but, as we go along, there will come a more respectful recognition that also it was scientific procedure.”

Quote from Frogfall

I've been thinking a little more about the possible VUV (Vacuum Ultraviolet) activity of some LEC working electrodes...

Your thinking is very welcome! I thought to VUV too (among many other things). But apparently they were not detected by magicsound operating in actual vacuum. Was their energy lower than the probe sensensitivity region? We don't know...

I proposed to test the LEC with Helium, since it has a quite high ionization energy (around 24 eV). This would be an easy and rough way to assess the energy emitted radiation (or the phenomenon in general). If Helium didn't get ionised, we will know that the radiation energy is lower than 24 eV. This will be a very valuable information!

Quote from Stevenson

Was their energy lower than the probe sensensitivity region?

I thought magicsound wrote that the probe, in the vacuum, wasn't able to detect any electromagnetic radiation below 150 eV. It is in the report, somewhere (I'll hunt it out).

The Helium test sounds good.

Quote from magicsound

Here's a link to my paper analyzing a LEC sample from Frank Gordon.

https://magicsound.us/MFMP/LEC_Analysis-2.pdf

My conclusions:

* The sample cell produced ~220 nW / cm2 , and up to 1 volt into 100 megohms.
* Surface morphology is complex and granular, particles ranging <100 nm - 2 um.
* The co-deposition layer contains substantial amounts of Zinc and Sodium.
* There is no significant x-ray emission from the sample cell 150 eV...100 keV .

And below, from Page 7:

Quote

The sample was then repositioned to directly in front of the Si-PIN detector of the EDX system. A onehour spectrum sample was taken in vacuum, with the SEM electron beam turned off. The detector did not see any emission in its range of 150 eV to 20 keV. The noise floor for this data collection was not measurable, at least 103 below the usual EDX operating level.

Quote from Frogfall

And below, from Page 7:

I was sure the range in which magicsound had looked was above 150 eV, thanks for finding the exact quote.

The latest paper from Hang Zhang, China. My partial edit and formatting. I have a few concerns, in particular about the short period of electrolysis employed at well below the Faraday Limit., but Frank Gordon and I discussed this and he urged me to publish.

ABSTRACT.

The LEC, a simple device producing electrical energy, was discovered by American scientists Frank Gordon and Harper J Whitehouse. They have described it as a ‘contact potential difference device’. The two electrode plates that form the cell are not in physical contact, being separated by any one of a number of gases. Various experiments and their results are described, typically ones where the surface of a ‘working electrode’ is co-deposited with hydrogen and another metal, for example Fe or Pd. Voltage is measured between a carefully washed and dried working electrode and a plain metal counter electrode, the distance between them is 0.5-1mm. The interstitial gas may be hydrogen, deuterium, air or other gases, and a voltage of several hundred millivolts can be measured [Ref. 1]. Alan Smith, a British scientist, created working electrodes by simple electrolysis of metal plates in light water without co-deposition and reproduced the LEC effect with different metals. [Ref. 4]. Recently Qiuran Laboratory has devoted considerable time to studying the LEC effect and we present some preliminary experimental results in which LEC phenomena have been observed. These experiments are qualitative ones in which iron plating, nickel plating, copper plating and electrolysis are used to activate working electrode surfaces and electrical measurements made to determine if LEC voltage is generated. Since the results reported here are ‘early stage’ we confess the methods are not yet refined, and we suffered some problems, including hydrogen valve leaks.

HANG ZHANG PDF.pdf

This is an open access document - and makes interesting reading (well I found it interesting, anyway)

Mechanisms of hydrogen embrittlement in steels: discussion | Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A: Mathematical, Physical and Engineering Sciences

This discussion session interrogated the current understanding of hydrogen embrittlement mechanisms in steels. This article is part of the themed issue ‘The…

royalsocietypublishing.org

Mechanisms of hydrogen embrittlement in steels: discussion

From Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A. Published 28 July 2017. Volume 375 Issue 2098

The whole issue appears to be open access,. The references at the end of the document are from other publications, so their availability might vary.

N.B. It isn't all steel. Titanium and zirconium are also discussed, albeit briefly.

Actually, the whole transactions issue, above, is quite a gem.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/toc/rsta/2017/375/2098

From the intro:

Quote

The challenge of hydrogen and metals, and in particular the phenomenon now known as ‘hydrogen embrittlement’ (HE) [1], is both a very old and a very new problem. It was reported first, to the Royal Society, in 1874 [2]. The question became of interest to metallurgists, chemists and physicists in the decades following the 1920s; and although much research was done and many mechanisms of HE were proposed, there has been no consensus. There may or may not be one single phenomenon that lies behind HE. While industry developed means of avoiding the catastrophic consequences of sudden failure due to hydrogen ingress in metals, the problem lay dormant at the end of the previous century.

There is also quite a bit of discussion about titanium in some of the sessions.

i'm well aware about HE and theories around that however why you make a link of that with Lenr ?

Quote from Frogfall

Actually, the whole transactions issue, above, is quite a gem.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/toc/rsta/2017/375/2098

From the intro:

There is also quite a bit of discussion about titanium in some of the sessions.

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Quote from Cydonia

i'm well aware about HE and theories around that however why you make a link of that with Lenr ?

This thread is about stuffing hydrogen into metals, and getting weird results. To ignore a hundred years of research into hydrogen inside metals would be de facto insanity.

If you are "aware about HE and theories around that" then you know that both the historical and current theories are totally inadequate to explain the observed phenomena.

Note that in some of the discussions recounted in the above journal, researchers were scraching their heads over the possible "contamination" sources of some of the elements that were found using SEM on hydrogen induced cracks in titanium alloys (even to the point of inventing a scenario, without evidence, that operators might have eaten fish and chips for lunch, and failed to wash their hands afterwards).

About steels this is especially the stiffers which are involved by the embrittlement.

They are highly alloyed by additives smaller in size which act as a wedge, carbon, nitrogen..

So playing with an one more smaller atom as hydrogen will play in the same way.

However Fralick from NASA, found xsh by playing with hydrogen (D2) only diffused across a ductile Pd metal which isn't involved by embrittlement under hydrogen ?

What will be your explanation of that ?

Quote from Frogfall

This thread is about stuffing hydrogen into metals, and getting weird results. To ignore a hundred years of research into hydrogen inside metals would be de facto insanity.

If you are "aware about HE and theories around that" then you know that both the historical and current theories are totally inadequate to explain the observed phenomena.

Note that in some of the discussions recounted in the above journal, researchers were scraching their heads over the possible "contamination" sources of some of the elements that were found using SEM on hydrogen induced cracks in titanium alloys (even to the point of inventing a scenario, without evidence, that operators might have eaten fish and chips for lunch, and failed to wash their hands afterwards).

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Note from Hang Zhang about publication of his latest experiments (see #1435 above).

Dear Alan、Frank

I saw the published article on the websiteThank you. Alan Smith made good comments and supplements to the article
Chinese cold fusion scholars also held a network meeting yesterday...The meeting raised many questions about the LEC experiment, their questions are basically the same as Alan's, mainly to question whether the experiment is imperfect

There are the following (Recommendations/discussed points from the meeting.)

1. Influence of plate spacing on LEC

2. Influence of plate area on LEC

3. If a piece of paper is inserted between electrodes, whether there is voltage

4. Test the short-circuit current

5. Whether the dryness and insulation of joints and insulation supports affect the test (excluding chemical batteries and thermocouples).

I think their opinion is very good, after all, the current experiment is a preliminary experiment Problems should be eliminated one by one. Solving all the problems (would) prove LEC
There is still a lot of work to be doneI also think about it carefully these days

Keep doing this job well