Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

Quote from can

Rob Woudenberg

Apparently, for each muon (positive or negative) up to about 50 electron–positron pairs may be produced according to the energy-dissipation mechanism described here: https://www.researchgate.net/p…by_lepton_pair-production

The additional challenge is to slow down negative muons because they move at sub-light speed, meaning, with decay time taken into considerations, a very spacious reactor will be needed if not slowed down.

This seems to be possible using molecular protium (H2), with the additional advantage of emission of light due to scintillation.
I found this publication summary of which I have requested a copy since it may be interesting in the context of how to harvest the annihilation energy.

Quote from can

Rob Woudenberg

Why use a gas? Muons would be most easily slowed down with heavy materials (metals), and if needs be, UDH itself could be used, which has been proposed (and observed) to be able to scatter fast particles like muons and so on.

https://www.cell.com/heliyon/fulltext/S2405-8440(18)34875-8

My understanding from this publication is that if UDH itself is used there is reflection instead of delay. Still useful though to create control. Using metal to delay will result in heat I guess which is a useful form of energy of course.
The advantage of using a gas is that it produces light which can be converted to electricity and in addition it creates a form of control by varying gas pressure.

Reflecting back is indeed an interesting option to catch all (kinetic) energy.
Regarding the lepton pairs, I have no knowledge to suggest how one would be able to harvest electricity from them.

Quote from can

Rob Woudenberg

They are already producing electricity, dissipated by the 50 Ohm load of the oscilloscope used (Tektronix TDS 3032), in the meson decay experiments, from a metal foil or sheet in the flight path of the particles generated by the laser-induced reaction.

EDIT: I have to clarify that it's my understanding, since the muons are suggested to dissipate their energy as they travel through metals via a pair production mechanism, and that the signal observed through metal sheets ("collectors") in the meson experiments is suggested to be due to muons causing the ejection of secondary electrons from them. However, upon checking out recent papers to be sure, it does not seem that a correlation between the two observations has been explicitly pointed out.

I think this particular test setup is not representative enough to conclude a surplus of electrical power was present.
The scope impedance may indicate there was power consumed but we do not have a complete overview of how this setup was connected as a whole.
In principle conservation of charge should also be valid during these experiments, meaning only the negative muons are responsible for an equal amount of electrons after decay. Lepton pairs consist of possitive and negative subparticles that in the end cancel each other out I think.
Norront/Holmlid will probably shed some light on this soon in new publications. This is a relative unexplored area that opens room for a lot of new inventions.

can
Returning back to the subject of Rydberg matter, do you think that there is a clear difference in the need for the additional catalyst, e.g. that of Potassium doped Iron Oxide types, between creating UDD or UDH with the presence of Palladium?

I am wondering this because I have the impression that Pd-D combinations seem to have more nuclear phenomena than Pd-H combinations (without additional catalysts) in many publications.

Recent publication by Forsley also indicates this:

Title: "Transmutations observed from pressure cycling palladium silver metals with deuterium gas"

Summary:

Hydrogen, deuterium, and helium gases were separately cycled through a Johnson-Matthey purifier containing coiled palladium silver alloy tubing: Pd25Ag (75 wt% Pd and 25 wt% Ag). During the cycling of D2 gas, evidence of anomalous heat production was observed. However, during the cycling of H2 and He, very little (H2) or no (He) unusual heat events were observed. After cycling the D2 gas through the coiled tubing for several months, Pd25Ag samples showed an increase in Cu and Fe compared with the amounts in unexposed Pd25Ag. Chromium, manganese, and zinc were detected in gas-cycled Pd25Ag samples, whereas they were not detected in unexposed Pd25Ag samples. In particular, Zn was present in the gas-cycled Pd25Ag material in larger quantities than either Cr or Mn. Although a small amount of Cu was present in the Pd25Ag coil before the D2 gas cycling, 7 times more was present after the cycling. Multiple material characterization techniques were used to obtain both pre-test and post-test elemental composition. The results indicate that novel post-test elements, primarily on the surface, were created by unknown nuclear mechanisms at low energy.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

can
Returning back to the subject of Rydberg matter, do you think that there is a clear difference in the need for the additional catalyst, e.g. that of Potassium doped Iron Oxide types, between creating UDD or UDH with the presence of Palladium?

I am wondering this because I have the impression that Pd-D combinations seem to have more nuclear phenomena than Pd-H combinations (without additional catalysts) in many publications.

Recent publication by Forsley also indicates this:

Title: "Transmutations observed from pressure cycling palladium silver metals with deuterium gas"

Summary:

Hydrogen, deuterium, and helium gases were separately cycled through a Johnson-Matthey purifier containing coiled palladium silver alloy tubing: Pd25Ag (75 wt% Pd and 25 wt% Ag). During the cycling of D2 gas, evidence of anomalous heat production was observed. However, during the cycling of H2 and He, very little (H2) or no (He) unusual heat events were observed. After cycling the D2 gas through the coiled tubing for several months, Pd25Ag samples showed an increase in Cu and Fe compared with the amounts in unexposed Pd25Ag. Chromium, manganese, and zinc were detected in gas-cycled Pd25Ag samples, whereas they were not detected in unexposed Pd25Ag samples. In particular, Zn was present in the gas-cycled Pd25Ag material in larger quantities than either Cr or Mn. Although a small amount of Cu was present in the Pd25Ag coil before the D2 gas cycling, 7 times more was present after the cycling. Multiple material characterization techniques were used to obtain both pre-test and post-test elemental composition. The results indicate that novel post-test elements, primarily on the surface, were created by unknown nuclear mechanisms at low energy.

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See Shmalko et al, the formation of excited H species using metal hydrides:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/…/abs/pii/0925838895017720

Also attached here for convenience [email protected]

In my opinion this article is top of the list among the most underrated articles in LENR. Published in 1995 way before UDH/UDD studies by Holmlid. A nice link between LENR and Holmlid's work.

Then, based on the literature on H and D desorption activation energy for various metals, it becomes clear that H works with Ni but not with Pd or Ti, because for the latter the external stimulus to desorb H at a high enough activation energy to form excited Rydberg H atoms would be too high, whereas D works particularly well with Pd and Ti but not with Ni.

Quote from JulianBianchi

See Shmalko et al, the formation of excited H species using metal hydrides:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/…/abs/pii/0925838895017720

Also attached here for convenience [email protected]

In my opinion this article is top of the list among the most underrated articles in LENR. Published in 1995 way before UDH/UDD studies by Holmlid. A nice link between LENR and Holmlid's work.

Then, based on the literature on H and D desorption activation energy for various metals, it becomes clear that H works with Ni but not with Pd or Ti, because for the latter the external stimulus to desorb H at a high enough activation energy to form excited Rydberg H atoms would be too high, whereas D works particularly well with Pd and Ti but not with Ni.

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Good find, thanks!
I tried to check whether there was some follow up on this paper, but failed to find some.
Some publications by Shmalko can be found at ResearchGate(membership required) but only 1 is related to the subject, the publication itself.

This particular paper basically confirms my expectations that Hydrogen/Deuterium that interacts with specific metal lattices allows for excited forms (e.g. Rydberg matter) of H/D. In other words UDH/UDD could be (indirectly) created by these effects (sorbtion-desorbtion).

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Good find, thanks!
I tried to check whether there was some follow up on this paper, but failed to find some.
Some publications by Shmalko can be found at ResearchGate(membership required) but only 1 is related to the subject, the publication itself.

This particular paper basically confirms my expectations that Hydrogen/Deuterium that interacts with specific metal lattices allows for excited forms (e.g. Rydberg matter) of H/D. In other words UDH/UDD could be (indirectly) created by these effects (sorbtion-desorbtion).

You can find following this link the 18 articles that cite that paper:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9771796761192185637

Some are from the same group.

Quote from can

Rob Woudenberg

It's difficult to know exactly whether the differences observed in typical Pd experiments have to do with the different physical properties of H and D (the latter for instance diffusing slower in metals) or the apparent difference in susceptibility to external influences (electric, magnetic fields, etc) of ultra-dense protium condensation compared to that of deuterium. From theory, it is expected that D will generate more heat locally (see a few posts ago for direct excerpts), as well as He from D+D fusion.

EDIT: for what it's worth, I have been once told that p(0) is more easily formed with some deuterium around and that the necessity to keep magnetic fields down is documented. From what I could read in his papers, Holmlid started reporting p(0) with more certainty when he probed it with the laser on "carrier materials" away from the catalyst rather than close to the surface of the catalyst. I'm not sure how (and if) such situation would be applicable to electrolytic or gas-loaded pure Pd experiments from the LENR field, though.

As I noted earlier UUD and UUH most likely have multiple states. In the state where the most energy is absorbed from the laser, neutrons should be produced. The difference in results with H or D is particularly noted in this article by Simakin and Shafeev [0906.4268] Initiation of nuclear reactions under laser irradiation of Au nanoparticles in the presence of Thorium aqua-ions (arxiv.org).

A laser's interaction with a Au particle causes Thorium (used as a detector) to react to particle flow. Corresponding with expectation of UUD or UUH production by the method I have suggested, Simakin suggests that neutrons are produced. However, I don't see that neutron production is necessary. With D20 or D, the Thorium decay rate accelerates. Per the method I have suggested, UUD would causes energy flow to Thorium nuclei which accelerates the decay of Thorium in the same way gamma radiation would; that is by an increase the giant dipole resonance. In contrast, with H20 or H, an increase in fission is indicated; There is a more energy or a energetic particle transfer to the Thorium nuclei. I have shown elsewhere that an electric arc in water likely causes hydrogen-hydrogen fusion to deuterium in water Hence, a laser initiated reaction starting with hydrogen rather than deuterium is more energetic. It is also much slower with deuterium than hydrogen. I have suggest that the particle flow which causes these reactions is a form of quintessence.

Quote from can

Drgenek

It is not the laser that is producing ultra-dense hydrogen/deuterium in Holmlid's experiments. Their detection was initially accomplished not through the nuclear products, but from the kinetic energy of ultra-dense fragments (in the "Coulomb explosion experiments", or "CE experiments") ejected by the laser pulses which would strip some loosely bound electrons in the normally tightly bound clusters. The fragments would then fly apart due to Coulomb repulsion, and from flight times and knowing the masses involved, atom-atom distance would be calculated.

This open-access paper describes in more technical detail this type of experiment. UDD or UDH (or D(0) and p(0) as they are usually called) are collected on various metal surfaces below the catalyst and results are presented for both of them: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4947276

There is no evidence that the laser can not be prime cause. I agree and have mentioned in other post the electrical energy can be a prime cause such as in CE explosion experiments. The Simakin's experiments and Holmid experiments have a common basis. Simakin's experiment just goes further by using Thorium as a detector for the energy or reaction of the excited state. What in Simakin's experiments lead you to think UDD or UDH or D(0) or p(0) is not present?

Quote from JulianBianchi

You can find following this link the 18 articles that cite that paper:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=9771796761192185637

Some are from the same group.

B.T.W. I was not aware of some of the tools scholar.google.com offers. This is actually a very nice tool to get alerts on new or updated publications of relevant authors with google scholar profile (e.g Holmlid). You will need to create a profile as well to make use of these features.

Quote from can

Drgenek

Holmlid starts seeing a signal both from the CE experiments and other experiment types typically after a few hours of gas admission through the catalyst(s). At the same time, so-called "spontaneous" nuclear reactions start occurring at a low rate, without a laser. Additionally, the signal can be depleted by applying the laser continuously, only to get restored after a longer period of gas admission without using the laser. Some of these observations have been pointed out for example in a recent preprint.

If the laser directly produced UDH in his experiments, wouldn't results be obtained right away and always? His results seem to instead suggest that something is slowly produced by the catalysts by the hydrogen gas flow and accumulates on suitable surfaces under his testing conditions.

"Holmlid starts seeing a signal both from the CE experiments and other experiment types typically after a few hours of gas admission through the catalyst(s). At the same time, so-called "spontaneous" nuclear reactions start occurring at a low rate, without a laser." There are no LENR in the sense that only energies in gamma range cause the actual nuclear reactions. The production of these higher energies requires phats. For example, repeated ionization of hydrogen causes hydrogen phats. The accumulation of phat at a sufficiently high energy will happen over time. "Additionally, the signal can be depleted by applying the laser continuously, only to get restored after a longer period of gas admission without using the laser." In a CE experiment NAE are formed in the wire. NAE are a source of quintessence,; remember that quintessence is produced by Au particle and laser energy. Quintessence is what cause Thorium to show nuclear reactions. Quintessence is also produced by the sun and can be collected into water by the aid of a magnet to slow it down. The accumulated quintessence condense to large cluster but can be launched from the water by a laser. The clusters of quintessence so launched can be captured by photographic film where their decay leaves traces called strange radiation. This strange radiation has been detected with film technique above from CE experiments. So a laser strips the quintessence or any UDH formed by the combination of quintessence and hydrogen or deuterium. Therefore, the depletion and return of activity causes by the laser's action or its absence on a CE wire is consistent with NAE in the CE wire. In the case of Au particles, laser energy cause ionization of hydrogen or deuterium (cause phats) when the laser is partial reflected and partially absorbed at the surface of the Au particle which then causes NAE. These NAE don't need to be in or on the metal but can also form in the water, for example when electric arc passes through water (i.e. formation of HHO gas).

Therefore, in Holmid experiment NAE are not formed right away and always. Yet low pressure favors hydrogen ionization and the so call catalyst can absorb any of the energized states of hydrogen which are likely not sufficiently dense to become what Holmlid would consider UDH. Between the hydrogen atom and a neutron, there are 240 different states or densities of hydrogen.

Quote from Drgenek

"Holmlid starts seeing a signal both from the CE experiments and other experiment types typically after a few hours of gas admission through the catalyst(s). At the same time, so-called "spontaneous" nuclear reactions start occurring at a low rate, without a laser." There are no LENR in the sense that only energies in gamma range cause the actual nuclear reactions. The production of these higher energies requires phats. For example, repeated ionization of hydrogen causes hydrogen phats. The accumulation of phat at a sufficiently high energy will happen over time. "Additionally, the signal can be depleted by applying the laser continuously, only to get restored after a longer period of gas admission without using the laser." In a CE experiment NAE are formed in the wire. NAE are a source of quintessence,; remember that quintessence is produced by Au particle and laser energy. Quintessence is what cause Thorium to show nuclear reactions. Quintessence is also produced by the sun and can be collected into water by the aid of a magnet to slow it down. The accumulated quintessence condense to large cluster but can be launched from the water by a laser. The clusters of quintessence so launched can be captured by photographic film where their decay leaves traces called strange radiation. This strange radiation has been detected with film technique above from CE experiments. So a laser strips the quintessence or any UDH formed by the combination of quintessence and hydrogen or deuterium. Therefore, the depletion and return of activity causes by the laser's action or its absence on a CE wire is consistent with NAE in the CE wire. In the case of Au particles, laser energy cause ionization of hydrogen or deuterium (cause phats) when the laser is partial reflected and partially absorbed at the surface of the Au particle which then causes NAE. These NAE don't need to be in or on the metal but can also form in the water, for example when electric arc passes through water (i.e. formation of HHO gas).

Therefore, in Holmid experiment NAE are not formed right away and always. Yet low pressure favors hydrogen ionization and the so call catalyst can absorb any of the energized states of hydrogen which are likely not sufficiently dense to become what Holmlid would consider UDH. Between the hydrogen atom and a neutron, there are 240 different states or densities of hydrogen.

Drgenek
Your comments suggest that you have quite a different view on how Holmlid´s UDD/UDH behaves.
You also introduced some new phenomena that were not mentioned by others in the discussion threads that deals with Holmlid´s work.
May I suggest you start a dedicated topic (thread) that focuses on the details (e..g Quintessence, NAE, 240 states of of Hydrogen) that you introduced in previous comments of this thread? In this way you may get more relevant contributions to your insights and allow this thread to stay in sync with Holmlid´s publications.