Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • Wyttenbach

    How is it obvious, since so far it seemed implied that vacuum conditions are necessary for its formation? Catalytic hydrogen transfer reactions (in general) may take place at pressures ranging from below atmospheric to hundreds of bar in rather chaotic conditions, often in the presence of oxygen or water/steam.

  • How is it obvious, since so far it seemed implied that vacuum conditions are necessary for its formation?

    The gas phase produces a random bombardement of the surface that will destroy clusters that are not yet relaxed or are excited. That's why I write about cavities since day 1 of my return to LENR. The open space angle of a cavity is a tiny fraction of the full sphere. The deeper the cavity is the more close to "0" this goes.

    And of course less pressure means fewer attacks...

    • Official Post

    How is it obvious, since so far it seemed implied that vacuum conditions are necessary for its formation? Catalytic hydrogen transfer reactions (in general) may take place at pressures ranging from below atmospheric to hundreds of bar in rather chaotic conditions, often in the presence of oxygen or water/steam.


    Vacuum conditions are not a pre-requisite for formation, but is one key determinant of its half life as a discrete material.

  • Alan Smith

    My previous understanding was that Rydberg matter clusters (UDH precursor) wouldn't easily form at pressures close to (or higher than) atmospheric, since the desorbing Rydberg species (e.g. of alkali atoms) would rapidly lose energy by collision with ground-state atoms and molecules in the surrounding atmosphere and thus be prevented from forming RM clusters. This has been sometimes explicitly suggested in past publications.


    If now it's being proposed that alkali RM is necessary for H RM to form, and that UDH (formed from H RM) has a crucial role in catalytic hydrogen transfer reactions in industrial reactors—which take place at a very wide range of pressures—this means that the initial alkali RM is not that sensitive to collisions and will be formed also under atmospheric conditions and higher.


    The loosely-bonded form of UDH involved catalytic reactions as suggested should have a much lower (at least a few hundred times) bond energy than the precursor alkali RM, so if that can exist on their surface, the ordinary RM form should be able to as well.




    On a related note (speaking of pressure), this 'submitted' / upcoming paper was listed in the recently published one.


    Quote

    [36] Holmlid L, Olafsson S, Zeiner-Gundersen S.

    Geophysical effects of ultradense hydrogen H(0) from the large muon-induced fusion energy release in or below the Earth's crust.

    Submitted n.d.

  • The recently published paper remarkably refers to Fleischmann and Pons:

    Quote

    3. So-called cold fusion according to Fleischmann and Pons [8] is probably due to the condensation reactions of H(0) as mentioned above and also due to the spontaneous nuclear processes which take place in H(0) [9]. Such spontaneous nuclear processes are similar to those induced by pulsed lasers [10-12] which do not give 4He and neutrons as products but instead give mesons, especially charged and neutral kaons [13-15]. Thus, these processes are not fusion processes.

    However Holmlid and co-authors do not indicate how such H(0) would be able to form unfortunately.

  • Along what is being suggested in the paper, perhaps desorption of hydrogen or deuterium in pores and cavities in the material, similarly to what was described in 2009 (see references below), with possibly in addition to that the help of alkali and other impurities which would be easily introduced by electrolysis and in the initial Pd manufacturing.


    https://www.allmystery.de/date…6882190,MileyClustLPB.pdf

    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MileyGHclusterswi.pdf

  • I agree, there must be some influence by impurities. This causes problems with reproducibility.


    The presentation shows another interesting detail in slide 21: the Pd-Ni stack and the bias voltage applied.

    The Pd-Ni stack shows some overlap with the publications of Iwamura (Clean Planet).

    I am not sure this was shown as a concept or as a setup that actually was used in experiments.

  • Quote

    The presentation shows another interesting detail in slide 21: the Pd-Ni stack and the bias voltage applied. .. The Pd-Ni stack shows some overlap with the publications of Iwamura

    Patterson cells did contain similar stack at their electrodes, Pd probably serves as a spill-over catalyst (hydrogen concentrator) for nickel. Nanocrack / dislocation approach worked well for Piantelli, who did use nickel whiskers grown from Knudsen cells as catalyst.


    Quote

    but instead give mesons, especially charged and neutral kaons


    Problem of these particles formation is, they exist at the opposite side of energy density spectrum than LENR and/or Rydberg matter and they apparently have nothing to do with it. Pulsed lasers are capable to produce antimatter and various heavy quarks in high densities - but I wouldn't call it cold fusion.

  • Problem of these particles formation is, they exist at the opposite side of energy density spectrum than LENR and/or Rydberg matter and they apparently have nothing to do with it. Pulsed lasers are capable to produce antimatter and various heavy quarks in high densities - but I wouldn't call it cold fusion.

    The common factor with the article you refer to and decomposition of UDD/UDH is annihilation caused by recombination of matter and it's antimatter. The lasers used in the referred experiments are likely very high power CPS lasers, not very low power lasers Holmlid used to decompose UDH/UDD.

    The first question is whether annihilation plays a role in LENR phenomena or not.

    The second question is whether annihilations (indirectly) cause transmutations or not.


    A few years ago Holmlid indicated that Ultra Dense Hydrogen and its use has no relation with LENR. This can be understood as he was solely focussing on muon catalyzed fusion.

    Meanwhile it looks like he is looking broader than that, hence his remark about H(0) in relation with F&P.

    Decomposing UDH/UDD with a pulsed laser causes sub-particles with very high (kinetic) energy that might cause transmutations. So far Holmlid did not report the presence of transmutations, it might be that he simply did not look for them.


    In a transmutation discussion at ResearchGate Holmlid mentioned that he had observed 'large changes in compositions' long ago:

    Quote

    Decades ago, we did standard SIMS analysis of materials which had been in contact with ordinary Rydberg Matter of alkali metal and there were large changes in the metal foil composition. Nobody seemed interested, so we never published. In the case of ultra-dense hydrogen, there are so many different nuclear reactions expected to be induced by the kaons, pions and muons, to many quite shortlived species. Not transmutation by a single process. Something for well-funded physicists to work on.

    Now, looking at LENR and UDH/UDD, these might be very relevant observations.

    It's remarkable that even alkali metal RM cause 'changes in compositions'.

  • Along what is being suggested in the paper, perhaps desorption of hydrogen or deuterium in pores and cavities in the material, similarly to what was described in 2009 (see references below), with possibly in addition to that the help of alkali and other impurities which would be easily introduced by electrolysis and in the initial Pd manufacturing.

    Agreed though using another alkali to have H atoms in an excited state seems impracticable to me in that experimental framework. The challenge is to have a desorption energy high enough to produce excited H atoms at the right energy level so that the RM can form. Standard desorption of H from a metal is at a too low energy level to produce excited enough Rydberg atoms. On the other hand, forced desorption e.g. through electrolysis from the bulk of a metal, or through temperature cycling with a fast increase in temperature, can lead to H atoms that have a high enough energy level and this close to a metal surface. If the desorption energy is not high enough ordinary H2 molecules will form and the increase in pressure (in a dry cell) will make the formation of RM still more difficult.

    Rather than alkali impurities, if some part of the metal surface has some carbon or oxygen, the H atoms will be able to desorb from these parts of carbon or metal oxide layers directly at the right energy level with RM forming at the remaining free parts of the metal layer (or through H spillover if another metal layer is in the vicinity). As such, some carbon or oxygen may be better "impurities" than another alkali.

    With regard to the link between UDH and F&P-like CF electrolysis experiments, desorption of D atoms into cracks forced by electrolysis from saturated Pd --> formation of RM of D in these cracks --> condensation of RM of D into UDD --> annihilation of UDD into mesons --> kaons/pions = strange radiations, works only if in the first step the desorption of D is boosted by electrolysis or with the presence of carbon or oxygen impurities to reach a high enough energy level of H Rydberg atoms.

  • Agreed though using another alkali to have H atoms in an excited state seems impracticable to me in that experimental framework.

    Admittedly I only wrote that because I recalled something along these lines being suggested in a general report on Pd-D LENR by Mosier-Boss, Forsley, McDaniel. The authors suggested that "Lithium can enter the Pd lattice" but I don't know the extent to which this can happen.


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBossinvestigat.pdf

  • Rather than alkali impurities, if some part of the metal surface has some carbon or oxygen, the H atoms will be able to desorb from these parts of carbon or metal oxide layers directly at the right energy level with RM forming at the remaining free parts of the metal layer (or through H spillover if another metal layer is in the vicinity). As such, some carbon or oxygen may be better "impurities" than another alkali.

    JulianBianchi do you have any recommendations or references to read about the role of carbon or metal oxides in relation to desorption of Hydrogen at the right energy level to form RM without the aid of any metal alkali?


    With regard to the link between UDH and F&P-like CF electrolysis experiments, desorption of D atoms into cracks forced by electrolysis from saturated Pd --> formation of RM of D in these cracks --> condensation of RM of D into UDD --> annihilation of UDD into mesons --> kaons/pions = strange radiations, works only if in the first step the desorption of D is boosted by electrolysis or with the presence of carbon or oxygen impurities to reach a high enough energy level of H Rydberg atoms.

    Obviously the F&P method, as they specified, did not reproduce well despite electrolysis in place. What would you see as the modified method to have a much higher reproducibility?

    • Official Post

    “It is straightforward to check with a laser and detector for time of flight”. So, Holmlid proposes this to be the method to verify the presence of H(0). Knowing that the equipment they have set up for the TOF detection is in the USD millions range it’s clear that backyard tinkering is kind of out of the question, at least in his mind.

  • Curbina

    Far less than 1 million $ is needed for that, but even with low-end equipment and cheap Nd:YAG pulsed laser adapted from other uses, it would still require at least a few thousands $. Muon detection with the method used by Holmlid/Norront could be a cheaper alternative, but for suitable hardware I think total costs would still be about 1500$ at the minimum.

    • Official Post

    Curbina

    Far less than 1 million $ is needed for that, but even with low-end equipment and cheap Nd:YAG pulsed laser adapted from other uses, it would still require at least a few thousands $. Muon detection with the method used by Holmlid/Norront could be a cheaper alternative, but for suitable hardware I think total costs would still be about 1500$ at the minimum.

    I don’t know if one can get an “out of the shelf” TOF detector, but I recall Sindre Zeiner-Gundersen talking about the lab for his replication costing in the order of 2 USD millions, or was it Danish crowns?

  • Curbina , the TOF detector is an oscilloscope (triggered by a photodiode) which measures the signal from a "collector" (you can think of it as an antenna) at a predetermined distance from the pulsed laser target, usually in a vacuum chamber in Holmlid's experiments.


    By measuring the time it takes for the signal to reach the collector (i.e. the time-of-flight), the kinetic velocity (MeV/u) of the emitted particles can be calculated. With H(0) on/in the target material, the signal is large and often relativistic. Further analysis can then be done in various ways.


    The pulsed laser is the most expensive piece of equipment here, but it depends on what type it is. Laboratory models can be very expensive. Similar lasers are also used for tattoo removal and can be purchased for less than 1000$, but beam quality and long-term reliability are unknown. Furthermore, adaptation work will be necessary.

    • Official Post

    Curbina , the TOF detector is an oscilloscope (triggered by a photodiode) which measures the signal from a "collector" (you can think of it as an antenna) at a predetermined distance from the pulsed laser target, usually in a vacuum chamber in Holmlid's experiments.


    By measuring the time it takes for the signal to reach the collector (i.e. the time-of-flight), the kinetic velocity (MeV/u) of the emitted particles can be calculated. With H(0) on/in the target material, the signal is large and often relativistic. Further analysis can then be done in various ways.


    The pulsed laser is the most expensive piece of equipment here, but it depends on what type it is. Laboratory models can be very expensive. Similar lasers are also used for tattoo removal and can be purchased for less than 1000$, but beam quality and long-term reliability are unknown. Furthermore, adaptation work will be necessary.

    Perhaps a project much worthy of LENR-forum crowdfunding pursue. Would you be able and willing to perform the experiments if we crowdfunded the lab equipment and materials to you? Would you be up to make a list and budget for us to consider? This is Just a very raw idea that I think is worthy of consideration for the moment, but all great journeys start this way.