Frank Gordon / Harper Whitehouse - the LEC -collected papers

  • Ah well, Nickel plated and hydrogenated mild steel plates don't work as well as I hoped, about 20mV max.... Back to the drawing board. Shame, because they are not subject to visible corrosion, or indeed other problems you get when using iron.

  • Could you put back the chart you done for comparision of all matters you tried ?

    It should be more quick for us to see where stay 20mV :thumbup:

    Ah well, Nickel plated and hydrogenated mild steel plates don't work as well as I hoped, about 20mV max.... Back to the drawing board. Shame, because they are not subject to visible corrosion, or indeed other problems you get when using iron.

  • Ah well, Nickel plated and hydrogenated mild steel plates don't work as well as I hoped, about 20mV max.... Back to the drawing board. Shame, because they are not subject to visible corrosion, or indeed other problems you get when using iron.

    Hi Alan,

    Have you got a photo of how you carried out the measurements? (i.e. location of WE plate in relation to counter electrode, together with the meter, and interconnecting wires). How does the layout/arrangement compare to the way you measured the electrodes in the above table?

    Cheers.

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • Don't well understand, at the end what is the matter of the 2 cylindrical parts of LEC ( internal and external ) which columns we have to take in account ?

    Alan was not using cylindrical parts at this stage already, he was using plates or even rods (I think the ferrocerium was a rod). The WE (Working Electrode) is the one treated for hydrogen co dep or absorption. The counter electrode is the one that closes the circuit and is separated by a 0,1 mm air gap (at that time I think Alan was using glass slide covers for creating the gap) from the WE.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Well to me, this approximation is a real trap.(plate vs tube).

    If we expect that light wavelength plays a role, we have to take care because the internal cylindrical tube won't respond as an "open" plate.

    Why it could play a role because this work.


    Again for those who looking for a reference experiment this one exists for a while..


    Alan was not using cylindrical parts at this stage already, he was using plates or even rods (I think the ferrocerium was a rod). The WE (Working Electrode) is the one treated for hydrogen co dep or absorption. The counter electrode is the one that closes the circuit and is separated by a 0,1 mm air gap (at that time I think Alan was using glass slide covers for creating the gap) from the WE.

  • Back to it today. I think it's time to revert to the nickel-foam/zinc combination- though this time I will try zinc-plated steel as a counter electrode. I have not forgotten that Frank and Harper used zinc plated iron pipe fittings early on. I am basing my choice on the table above.


    BTW- I have only ever used flat plate electrodes., since in most of my LEC work I haven't used or needed a hydrogen gas containment since it was looking at shorter term effects. But now I will, as I have a hydrogen generator that's no problem.

  • Hi Alan,


    I'm wondering why you changed from your previous potassium carbonate electrolyte (as used on all the samples in the table from your paper) to lithium hydroxide, for the nickel plated mild steel. (e.g. is it a solution that Frank G uses?)


    A test that does not come out as you had expected is every bit a valuable as one that "works". At the very least, it indicates that your provisional model may not be as useful as previously hoped.


    n.b. I'm still interested in how you measured the voltage (i.e. the physical layout, materials, wiring, meter), as compared to your previous tests (a photo would be good).


    What material did you use for the counter electrode, during measurement? Was it a 2 electrode cell (WE/CE) - or some kind of stack? And did you separate the plates with nylon fly screen, as before? Which electrode was on top, and which was on the bench?


    Cheers

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • I tried using LiOH because it is a real 'classic' LENR electrolyte, definitely worth a try, but now I am switching back to potassium carbonate - sticking with what worked before.


    I am (for the moment) using the same little hand held meter that's shown in the presentation above, WE sitting on top of the CE just a 2 plate stack using Aluminium copper and steel counter electrodes with a fly-screen plate separator. I have a 5-1/2 digit high-precision bench meter if things get serious I will revert to that. Right now I am 'looking for effect' and the Ni plated steel is deader than dead.


    But I do agree, there are no failed experiments at this stage, just experiments that tell you to try something else.

  • Ah well, Nickel plated and hydrogenated mild steel plates don't work as well as I hoped, about 20mV max.... Back to the drawing board. Shame, because they are not subject to visible corrosion, or indeed other problems you get when using iron.

    Was the 20 mV using both for the WE and CE nickel plated steel plates ?

  • LDM - No- one plated working electrode and one untreated but clean counter-electrode

    If both the WE and CE are both plated in the same way, is then the voltage zero ?

    And if that is the case, is there then still conduction between the electrodes when applying an external voltage ?

    Has anybode done such tests ?

  • If both the WE and CE are both plated in the same way, is then the voltage zero ?

    I would expect there would be none - and I checked today,othere is none.. And conduction between such electrodes would depend on lots of things- hydrogen out-gassing, the applied voltage and so o. I am not sure there is much to be learnt from doing that. I know that identical metals yield a voltage if one has been plated or merely exposed to hydrogen via electrolysis. It is known that occluded hydrogen changes the work function and that a difference in work function (contact potential) is enough to give a voltage.

  • If both the WE and CE are both plated in the same way, is then the voltage zero ?

    And if that is the case, is there then still conduction between the electrodes when applying an external voltage ?

    Has anybode done such tests ?

    This is an interesting experiment, at least conceptually (not really useful in practice though, as Alan said). If you use the same metal with the same surface treatment you will get almost zero voltage (part of the voltage depends on the difference in work functions, part from asymmetry in ion diffusion), but you will still be able to pass a current between the electrodes because the gas will be ionized.

  • I would expect there would be none - and I checked today,othere is none.. And conduction between such electrodes would depend on lots of things- hydrogen out-gassing, the applied voltage and so o. I am not sure there is much to be learnt from doing that


    If there is no voltage but there is conduction between the plates, then it means that the co-deposition causes ionization between the electrodes.

    It is then likely that the voltage measured is due to differences in work functions and not due to the co-deposition.

    These differences in work functions can be due to :


    Use of different materials

    Short wave photons hitting the metal (As already dicovered by Hertz)

    Hydrogen absorbtion

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