This 2011 paper is kind of a review of water electolyzers. Hope you find it interesting.
Posts by Curbina
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I have been very actively commenting on those publications about Ohmasa gas. Within the threads, a very interesting 2011 publication in Physics Procedia titled "Water Electrolyzers and the zero point energy" by Moray B. King was brought to the reader's attention by a poster dubbed "The Director". Here I am attaching the issue pdf, I strongly recommend its reading. It proposes an interesting hypothesis that made a lot of sense to me since I have been for years aware of the ideas of Ruggero Santilli and his "magnecules". The hypothesis posed by King is that electrolyzers of water create not only H2 and O but also a form of charged gaseous water clusters that are responsible of all the odd behaviors of the so called HHO, Brown's or Ohmasa gases, in direct proportion of the amount of the gaseous water clustered each technology is capable to form, which is a function of several characteristics of the electrolyzer used. Ohmasa's gas is probably very rich in this gaseous water species and thus it has much more of the odd qualities.
The summary:
This paper was motivated by the apparent success of the researchers and hobbyists in the “HHO
community.” They have been demonstrating unusual energy anomalies and have been trying to explain
them in terms of hydrogen production. Those that are scientifically trained realize that hydrogen cannot
account for what is claimed, and thus the discussion groups on the web are engaged in vituperative
argument. In a sense, both sides are right: hobbyists appear to be demonstrating energetic anomalies and
hydrogen is not the source.
The hypothesis offered is that the single-duct electrolyzers are producing charged water gas clusters,
which is the dominant energetic component instead of hydrogen. The electrolyzers that yield the largest
energy anomalies appear to make more charged water clusters and less hydrogen. From the study of the
disclosures by many inventors, the following characteristics seem to make favorable electrolyzers:
1. Clean, rough electrode surface
2. Small gap between the electrodes
3. Circulate or vibrate the water
4. Minimum electrolyte (typically potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide)
5. Driving electrolyzer with pulsed DC square waves
6. High voltage spike on the leading edge of the square wave
7. Recycling the exhaust water back to the electrolyzer
Turbulent water flow through narrow inter-electrode gaps appears to augment the energy content of
the emitted gas.
One of the points in the paper is that the flame of the burning of this gas is relatively cold, 130°C, which is consistent with what Bob Greenyer measured with the Optris, albeit I don't know how the guys that report that temperature that King quotes performed the measurement (I e-mailed them asking, hope they answer).
I think this is a good read, it is a sort of review of HHO gas claims, but for me the bottom line is that perhaps we have been wrong all the time to assume that brown's gas is just H2 and O, but perhaps the gaseous water cluster (which would be another embodiment of the EVOs ) is what has all the interesting properties.
I can relate this ideas to Santilli's magnecules, Shoulders, and even to Graneau and his overunity water arc explosions.
Santilli always insisted his magnegas was capable of being attracted by magnets, and I bet that Ohmasa gas also does, but no one has tried or looked into it.
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In fact it is the opposite way around. He published to many fringe claims in the first days of his forum and got attacked. So now he is very cautious.
Just to give you a clue. If a magnetic motor would work, you could buy it already as the production costs are neglishable.
That site recently covered the IEC magnet motor pretty thoroughly and the comment section turned into a forum on its own, full of believers and debunkers. I think they have learnt the lesson.
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Mats, will you share the results later? I am interested in knowing, too. You might or not know that I went all the way from total and staunch Rossi suporter and follower to bitter and regretful person that would have preferred to never have heard about Rossi and his e-cat in his life, with the turning point around the publication of all the court transcripts of the "sue". I honestly wonder how many people still believe in Rossi after all his shenanigans and 0 proof. And take this from a guy that followed another high profile free energy (Steorn motor magnet) since 2006 to its bitter end around 2017, so I should have known better.
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Robert, I think the overunity of the experiments is out of the question, every press release and analysis states it was detected and the surprise was so big that it took the people doing the experiments 14 months of further experiments and checks and double checks to confirm this.
This article has some key statements:
https://share-ng.sandia.gov/ne…ron/hottest-z-output.html
What happened and why?
Z’s energies in these experiments raised several questions.
First, the radiated x-ray output was as much as four times the expected kinetic energy input.
Ordinarily, in non-nuclear reactions, output energies are less — not greater — than the total input energies. More energy had to be getting in to balance the books, but from where could it come?
Second, and more unusually, high ion temperatures were sustained after the plasma had stagnated — that is, after its ions had presumably lost motion and therefore energy and therefore heat — as though yet again some unknown agent was providing an additional energy source to the ions.
Sandia’s Z machine normally works like this: 20 million amps of electricity pass through a small core of vertical tungsten wires finer than human hairs. The core is about the size of a spool of thread. The wires dissolve instantly into a cloud of charged particles called a plasma.
The plasma, caught in the grip of the very strong magnetic field accompanying the electrical current, is compressed to the thickness of a pencil lead. This happens very rapidly, at a velocity that would fly a plane from New York to San Francisco in several seconds.
At that point, the ions and electrons have nowhere further to go. Like a speeding car hitting a brick wall, they stop suddenly, releasing energy in the form of X-rays that reach temperatures of several million degrees — the temperature of solar flares.
The new achievement — temperatures of billions of degrees — was obtained in part by substituting steel wires in cylindrical arrays 55 mm to 80 mm in diameter for the more typical tungsten wire arrays, approximately only 20 mm in diameter. The higher velocities achieved over these longer distances were part of the reason for the higher temperatures.
(The use of steel allowed for detailed spectroscopic measurements of these temperatures impossible to obtain with tungsten.)
Haines theorized that the rapid conversion of magnetic energy to a very high ion plasma temperature was achieved by unexpected instabilities at the point of ordinary stagnation: that is, the point at which ions and electrons should have been unable to travel further. The plasma should have collapsed, its internal energy radiated away. But for approximately 10 nanoseconds, some unknown energy was still pushing back against the magnetic field.
Haines’ explanation theorizes that Z’s magnetic energies create microturbulences that increase the kinetic energies of ions caught in the field’s grip. Already hot, the extra jolt of kinetic energy then produces increased heat, as ions and their accompanying electrons release energy through friction-like viscous mixing even after they should have been exhausted.
High temperatures previously had been assumed to be produced entirely by the kinetic flight and intersection of ions and electrons, unaided by accompanying microturbulent fields.
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Cool stuff Alan!!! I had no idea you were that ahead on this venture. This is the kind of stuff that strenghtens my thinking of that we really could abandon oil completely if we really wanted to.
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Display MoreHaines observed the anomalous energy output as soft Xrays..I,e >250 kEV.
I'm not sure whether the magnetic flux transfer can cause this.
This was Haines embryonic idea which he never finalised
"In this Letter a new approach
to the rapid conversion of magnetic energy to radiation via short wavelength m=0 interchange MHD,instabilities,
the subsequent ion viscous heating,
then equipartition to the electrons,
and finally to soft x-ray radiationis proposed.
Maybe he could never justify all the steps.
The results were, and still are, baffling. That's why I am so interested in this issue, and also intrigued about it's virtual dissapearance from the field of research. I don't like to resort to conspiralandia, but such impressive results, completely absent from the spotlight? One can only wonder why.
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I have commented many times, whenever "Cold Fusion" talks get into the "Hot Fusion" development, that IMHO the Z machine experiments on Sandia Labs and the published results by the late Malcolm Haines, while stunning and ripe with implications, have been mostly and completely overlooked and ignored.
The experiments are within the realm of what is mostly labelled "Inertial confinement fusion", and basically consist in driving a huge amount of energy stored electric energy in a pulse through an array of wires (normally Tungsten, but in the famous experiment, replaced by stainless steel) that happens in fractions of a second, and generates a plasma burst and X rays emissions.
The 2006 experiments created what held the record of highest man made temperature for several years (until CERN experiments scored much higher), at astonishing 3.600.000.000 degrees Kelvin. But the scientist in charge could not believe that, because the energy in the pulse could not account for that thermal increase. The computations, performed several times after several experimental repetitions, to be sure and to discard any measurement errors, were of 4X overunity. That is 4 times mor energy in the thermal output than the electrical energy pulse used to ignite the Z machine.
This experiment was not even trying to achieve those results. This was a complete surprize, I cannot emphasize this any more.
I am opening this thread to bring back discussion on this achievement and analyze in the light of what is now more or less known or guessed about LENR, as I think there is a relation, as we are looking at overunity in a plasma, which is a theme already known to us in cases like the hydrino of Mills, the Ultradense hydrogen of Holmlid and the magnecules of Santilli, to name a few.
I will leave here some introductory material and an in depth analysis of the Haines paper, and also a link to the Haines paper.
Hope you enjoy and we can discuss this together, if it interest the readers enough to do so.
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060313.html
https://www.sciencedaily.com/r…/2006/11/061103104056.htm
http://www.jp-petit.org/Site_A…ments_on_haines_paper.pdf
http://www.ufo-science.com/ufo…ds/pdf/article_Haines.pdf (2006 Haines paper on Journal of Physics Letters).
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I still contend LENR is an animal that is partially well depicted by the Hydrino, the magnehydrogen, the metallic hydrogen, and so on, everyone finding a perspective of it but no one able to see the whole picture, so even if they are painting a picture of the same phenomena, everyone thinks the others are wrong. I am the kind of mind that sees the patterns beneath details and I see they are talking of the same stuff.
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I really would like to know what you folks think about the Z machine results. They are very intriguing to me, a 4X over unity that no one expected and that they had to check and re check tens of times just to be sure they weren't being fooled, and a peak temperature of 3,6 billion °K, I am really baffled why this issue is not much more openly discussed in the Fusion community, because even if a those high temperatures, I think that machine has much more to do with LENR than anyones could imagine.
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https://tech.nikkeibp.co.jp/dm/atcl/news/16/052912236/ There was an article in Nikkei Business today about Miura Co., Ltd a boiler manufacturer investing in Cold Fusion Technology (Clean Planet) which is not associated with Mizuno.
Good find!!!
It's interesting what you can read in the Googlated version:
Clean Planet, a venture company established in 2012, is engaged in the development of new hydrogen energy based on the "Condensed nuclear reaction research department" in the Electronic Optical Research Center, which was jointly established with Tohoku University in 2015. It is. Mitsubishi Estate also invested in January this year.
The company aims to put it to practical use in reaction systems based on relatively inexpensive nickel, copper and light hydrogen. In the next few years, we will complete demonstration devices such as 100 W power generation modules combined with thermoelectric elements and heat generating devices based on existing steam boilers, and aim for cooperation with domestic and foreign energy infrastructure around 2022.
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Curbina Hi there old friend - many years since we met in London. Hope you are well.
Speaking (as you were) of obsessions, here's something for your BIL National Geographic.
Hello Alan!!! you were such a kind and interesting host there in London, meeting you was the highlight of that trip, by far.
Thanks for the link, I read the article and indeed is the kind of wrting style that would pick my BIL curiosity rather than ticking him off. Much thanks for pointing me on the right direction!!!
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I, but Hanlon's law may apply: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
I´d normally agree with you wholeheartedly, but stupidity in such an important matter is unforgivable and I'd rather think this was rather intentional. I'd really like to think differently, but so much is at stake with LENR. -
Here's Santilli 2003 paper on the international Journal of Hydrogen Energy where he claims proof of his denser species of hydrogen.
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Newly published paper that may support Brilliant Light Power's approach --
A simple argument that small hydrogen may exist
I was going to mention the very same stuff, the toroidal area of probable distribution of electrons in Santilli's Hadron Mechanic books, resulting from plasma arcing, as another version of the small hydrogen idea, Santilli calls this Magnehydrogen and sustains this can bind both chemically and magentically to form "magnecules". Santilli alleges he has proof that his "magnehydrogen" can be compressed to much higher ratios than normal hydrogen, and managed to publish in the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy a paper where he says he conclusively proves this is no normal hydrogen. There is another researcher that proposes all sorts of geometric areas of probability for Hydrogen related to LENR, but I can't recall his name other than it is from slavic origin.
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This whole failure to replicate from Google team brought to my memory the efforts of a first year student on Stanford that attempted to replicate Graneau's overunity water arc explosion results, and succeeded.
Perhaps Google might hire that student that perhaps by now is already graduated?
http://waterarcresearch.blogspot.com/
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Santilli is a very controversial character, and has a track record of being quirky, temperamental, outspoken, temper tantrum prone, and incapable of backing off or recognizing when is caught red handed in a flat out lie. That said, I once asked online a person who was an actual plasma phycisist and PhD, what he thought of Hadronic Mechanics. He told me that Santilli is the kind of guy that will be proven right decades after his death, and that there was a handfull of people in the world actually capable of understanding what Hadronic Mechanics is about. I was impressed by that comment, but seems that kind of rather positive opinion about Santilli is rather rare among his peers.
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Whew! good thing I had saved the password for entering here, I had not logged in for what seemed an age (Rossi's fiasco certainly left me really wary of anything LENR for a good while, and in any other front the advance has been glacial, to put it mildly).
This recent Nature publication, notified by a brave spam unfiltered LENR-Forum notification e-mail to me, called my attention for a few good minutes, only to prove a confirmation of the usual mainstream treatment of LENR. There is a saying that tells that there's not such thing as bad press, and certainly the first LENR Nature publication could have been an ocasion for celebration, but the article imho is a tragedy for the field's credibility and the clowns that attempted replication without even following a single of the known succesfull set ups, is really baffling, and one suspects ill intentions from the onset.
I have a brother in law that works in Google X, (NDA bound as a walking in sine qua non condition). Some years ago when the Google name sounded as interested in LENR, I posed him the question about LENR and Google and he told me he had no idea about LENR or Google doing anything with it.
If I call this article to his attention, knowing he is really skeptic of anything non mainstream, he will probably brush it off as yet another of my loony obsessions with free energy, that's why I would like to ask you avid readers, if anyone of the Google people involved has said anything about continuing the research more properly, in order to ask my BIL if he can find out some more, boots on ground.
Glad to see you all commenting here.
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A couple of things To note are:
-Hadronic Journal is Santilli's own journal. He claims he was forced to self publish since no one wanted To publish his work.
- even if Santilli is a crank, his Hadronic mechanics is taken seriously by some researchers, Unfortunately they all end publishing in one of Santilli's journalls
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He has some interesting ideas, in some way related to Mills hydrino. Santilli might be lunatic now but once he was not, and he developed what I consider now to be an early approach to LENR with "4X" overunity claimed results. Now Santilli, of advanced age, seems to have fallen prey of his own "grandeur", but it does not diminish what he might have got right when he was still sane.
His book "Hadronic Mechanics" was published by Springer, not a triviality in term of books publishing.
http://www.springer.com/us/book/9781402000874#reviews
I once asked a plasma physics doctor what he thought of Santilli, and he told me that he thinks very few people can even understand Santilli, he is probably way ahead of our time, and will eventually be rediscovered.
It can be found for download in several places, I have it, and I see his theory is broadly translatable to say that when you submit hydrogen molecules to a highly magnetic plasma, it releases energy and the orbitals of the electrons shift shape to a toroidal area instead of a spherical one, releasing energy in excess. He has obtained very interesting experimental results regarding the density of this altered hydrogen.