Posts by can

I made some other tests in order to verify if radiofrequency emissions affect the multimeter used.

First (minute 00:00), I tried adding another (not so good) multimeter to see if the battery voltage oscillated wildly also with it. It seems this was the case. In this test the instruments were about one meter away from the jar.

Then (00:58), I tried placing the multimeter-clampmeter without cables close to the jar, and I got disturbances in the order of hundreds of millivolts.

Finally (01:27), I added back the cables, but did not connect them to anything. I then got apparent voltage spikes even above 200V. It would seem that the cables are acting like some kind of antenna, and a more or less large part of the previously observed disturbances could be due to this.

In these tests I used newly-prepared electrolyte solution, but I inadvertently added more water than usual, and the electrolyte concentration ended up being lower than in earlier tests. Because of this, the voltage effect seen was in turn also lower than usual. Even so, it was large enough to be measured.

magicsound

Here is another test, with the multimeter put about 1 meter away from the cathodic plasma electrolysis setup (jar), very partially shielded with Al foil. A similar voltage spike effect was observed also at this distance.

The electrolyte solution and electrodes were reused from earlier testing, but 1 ml 0.1M K2CO3 solution was added to make up for the loss of potassium, which apparently gets sequestered from the solution by cathode erosion. Otherwise, this voltage effect remains low, regardless of how brightly and loudly one gets the cathode to shine in the same reaction.

Even in this video it can be seen how the effect is high in the beginning but tends to decrease with time. This is because without being able to look at the multimeter in real-time, I wasn't able to gauge how far I could push the reaction in order to show the effect. It is most visible when the cathode looks hot, but if temperatures increase too much, erosion occurs.

The HV converter is turned on at minute 00:20.

magicsound

In the above test I put it directly behind the jar in order to show it along with the plasma reaction, but usually the multimeter is at least 40 cm distance from it, close to the 12V battery used to power up the high-voltage DC boost converter. There did not seem to be significant differences in behavior from this one test and those performed in the previous days, but I could try putting it further away and check out if there is any difference. I don't have shielded cables for the multimeter, however.

More than the DSL modem/router apparatus itself, the reaction appears to be affecting the telephone line into which digital data is transmitted to/from the modem. Fast DSL internet connections are relatively sensitive to impulsive and strong RF disturbances, so in a way mine is working as a sort of "detector". See for example this random paper from the internet for a possible reference about the issue (just the abstract is fine): https://lafibre.info/images/ad…pact_of_Impulse_Noise.pdf

If I use battery power I only get limited disturbances that do not significantly affect the connection, but when I use a 12V computer power supply, I get service interruptions and many "unrecoverable errors". Furthermore, noise then starts appearing on nearby equipment like loudspeakers and so on. I suspect that the high-voltage converter might in that case be injecting voltage spikes into the mains and the telephone line (through the 12V computer power supply).

For what it's worth, I tried bypassing the "78L09" 9V output voltage regulator by relocating the 0-Ohm jumper from the 10–32V to the 8–16V position as marked on the converter's PCB. Operation seems subjectively a bit steadier, and the converter appears to be acoustically quieter than before. I'm still getting intense voltage spikes back to the input under certain conditions. RF emissions from the same plasma tests seem largely unchanged.

I realized I haven't yet produced a video showing both the plasma and the voltage spikes measured with a multimeter to the battery. Here is a brief test using about 35ml tap water + 2.5ml 0.1M K2CO3 solution + 1.5ml acetone, and a 0.45mm tungsten cathode where I do just that.

In the background there is a multimeter measuring 12V battery voltage into the high-voltage DC boost converter I'm using for powering the electrodes.

When conditions are right, voltage spikes even above 100V are apparently observed at the battery. At the same time, intense RF emissions are produced (not directly shown here). An oscilloscope would be useful in order to tell what's going on exactly.

Curbina

Sometimes the process can be much longer; it's seems it's the case for the paper on the catalysts pointed out earlier by Ahlfors.

By the way, I just realized that the above paper has references on other papers submitted for review that I did notice before:

• [10]. L. Holmlid, “Decay-times of pions and kaons formed by laser-induced nuclear processes in ultra-dense hydrogen H(0))”. Submitted.
• [15]. L. Holmlid. “Controlling the process of muon formation for muon-catalyzed fusion: method of non-destructive average muon sign detection”. Submitted.
• [23]. L.Holmlid, “Muons with different sign from laser-induced nuclear processes in ultra-dense protium p(0) and ultra-dense deuterium D(0)”. Submitted.

Curbina

The voltage spikes seem to be real and cause issues to other electrical appliances connected to the house wiring, if I use a mains-connected 12V power supply for powering the converter. These issues are mitigated if instead I use it with 12/24V battery power, but RF emission still remain strong (only under certain conditions, though).

[Speaking of different matters concerning the device] A while ago I made a graph of the current-voltage relationship with it, when powered with 12V; see graph below. I removed unnecessary graph information. The converter apparently supports up to 200 mA output, but only at relatively low voltages. This seemed consistent across several readings under various conditions.

Rob Woudenberg

Right now the converter's power MOSFET is mated to the heat sink with just a rubber thermal pad. I already have high-thermal conductivity paste and 0.10 mm mica shims, so perhaps I could try this suggestion. I think however that there are hardware limitations lowering power/current, more than heat dissipation.

Rob Woudenberg

The voltage range is fine, but a higher current output at higher voltages would be desired. Since I'm using active cooling (currently, a 70mm computer fan from an old AMD heat sink, running at 12V), perhaps the converter could be pushed a little bit more.

The second reason why I posted this partial analysis that I was curious knowing why/how I'm apparently getting significant voltage spikes back to the low-voltage inputs under certain conditions, when using this device in a plasma electrolysis setup.

Quote from Ahlfors

Good

https://www.lenr-forum.com/att…076-29-kotarba-et-al-pdf/

Figures 4 and 5 in this 20-years old paper appear to be swapped, by the way. The captions are in the correct place, however.

In the past several months I have been using a commercially-available DC-DC high voltage boost converter for plasma and plasma electrolysis experiments of various sorts. Several vendors sell this model for about 10–15$ on Amazon or Ebay, in a few variants with differing build quality and features. The one I have has two high voltage outputs of opposing polarity. At +/- 390V this means up to 780V.

Here are a few:

• https://www.amazon.com/Qianson-Converter-±45V-390V-Adjustable-Capacitor/dp/B01IVMU2XI/
• https://www.amazon.com/LM-YN-H…-Capacitor/dp/B01MYLWHZW/
• https://www.amazon.com/Comidox…Adjustable/dp/B07PGMBG1Q/

Quote from Specifications

Name: High Voltage boost converter module

Properties: non-isolated step-up module

Input voltage: two input voltage range selectable, (jumper selectable through the back of the PCB, default setting 10-32V input)

1, 8V-16V input

2, 10V-32V input

Input Current: 5A (MAX)

Quiescent current: 15mA (12V step up to 50V, the higher the output voltage will increase the quiescent current)

Output voltage: ± 45-390V continuously adjustable (the default output ± 50V. This module has regulator function, after adjusted output voltage is stable and unchanging, not with changes in input voltage changes)

Output Current: 0.2A MAX

Output Power: 40W (peak 70W)

Working temperature: -40℃ ~ + 85℃

Operating frequency: 75KHz

Conversion efficiency: up to 88%

Short circuit protection: Yes. (Input 10A fuse, at the output please do not short circuit arc, it may damage component, if you need please add power resistor in series for limiting)

Overcurrent protection: Yes. (Input current exceeds 4.5A, reducing the output voltage)

Overvoltage protection: Yes (Output voltage exceeds 410V, lowering the output voltage) Input reverse polarity protection: Yes (non-self-healing, reverse burning fuse, you have better not reverse it.)

Dimensions: 60(L)*50(W)*22(H)mm

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To the best of my abilities I have tried looking more in detail at the components installed on the circuit board of the one I have. Unfortunately I couldn't manage to measure the capacitance of the small SMD capacitors. Here is what I came up with (source image also attached):

Besides capacitors and resistors (as well as one 50 kOhm potentiometer) there are:

• 1x 5A/10A fuse at the input. This is mostly to prevent a reverse voltage from being applied to the converter (which happened to me once).
• 1x 78L09 voltage regulator with up to 30V input and 9V output.
  • This could be bypassed by desoldering the 0 Ohm jumper from the 10–32V position to the 8–16V position.
• The Input goes into a UC3843A PWM controller which supports 500 kHZ and to 8.4–28V input. This likely defines the minimum voltage allowed by the HV converter
• These ones I believe are mostly required for PWM controller logic:
  
  • 1x LM358 op-amp
  • 1x 1AM NPN transistor
  • 2x 431 Triode
  • 3x S4 Schottky diodes
• 1x RU7088R N-channel power MOSFET
• 2x US3M ultra-fast rectifiers rated for 1000V DC voltage and 3A

Input DC appears to be PWM-pulsed into a small transformer with some voltage/current/load-limiting logic, and the transformer AC output very simply rectified into two 400V 10uF capacitors for the +/- outputs.

One thing I haven't tried yet is bypassing the 9V output voltage regulator at the input stage. Perhaps the circuit could work more effectively with e.g.12V. Also, I'm not sure if the 0.04 Ohm resistor could be safely bypassed to increase effective power or capacitor charging speed.

The paper was discussed about when it got published online months ago, here: RE: Experimental Instrument For Rydberg Matter Research (University of Iceland)

I think the 1300x efficiency is a best-case scenario for a single pulse, just taking into account the laser pulse energy into the vacuum chamber.

Quote from Ahlfors

[L. Holmlid, A. Kotarba and P. Stelmachowski, “Function of the Solid Catalyst Used for Production of Ultra-dense Hydrogen H(0)”. (in preparation)]

As far as I am aware of, this paper is going to take a while to get published.

Cydonia

I don't know what you don't know, but it's probably still useful to put things clearly for those who don't get the sarcasm used in this thread.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that Paradigmnoia believes that Rossi is producing excess heat. If I recall correctly, he built a QX-analogue a few months ago, and used it with just air.

Quote from Cydonia

Why oxygen, no hydrogen ? Could you share deeply your expectation Paradigmnoia ? Thank you

Quote

80/20 nitrogen/oxygen with a sprinkle of argon

Is roughly the composition of standard air.

Some notes from limited cathodic plasma electrolysis testing performed over the past few days:

• I think my 0.1M KOH solution is slowly turning into potassium-sodium silicate as I have been keeping it in a glass jar for several days now. Fine white residues have formed. The reason why I have not been preparing it anew for each test is that every time I open the KOH bottle it seems as if water is progressively getting absorbed by the KOH flakes contained there.
• Even with the addition of larger amounts of acetone to prevent oxidation, HCl electrolyte (added in drops to achieve a similar conductivity) does not seem to help particularly with cathodic plasma electrolysis. Heat produced appears to be relatively low, and much splashing occurs. This could be from the negative Cl ions getting repelled by the high voltage negative cathode (same polarities repel). Adding KOH (or what it is now) back makes the cathode turn brightly incandescent and even flash bright white again (at the cost of much increased wear).
• Citric acid (again similar conduction) appears to have a similar effect to HCl. Reaction stabilizes and does not "burst" as easily into bright incandescence. Also, it seems as if splashing increases compared to just KOH/alkaline electrolyte. KOH addition restores the old behavior at least in part.
• The main practical problem I have encountered so far is that the back voltage effect seen at the batteries (14 Ah 24V pack from an uninterruptible power supply) seems short lived: tungsten cathode wire erosion quickly reduces it, probably from debris or removal of free KOH in the solution. In a test I also noticed that the the debris-filled solution does not seem to get visibly neutralized with HCl, which usually causes vigorous bubbling. This could mean that free KOH is removed from the solution when the tungsten cathode erodes.
• It also seems that the more time (days) passes the more difficult is to reproduce this backvoltage effect. This could be from the KOH solution degrading (from glass and CO2 absorption from the atmosphere).
• The back voltage at the batteries seems independent from the current oscillations seen at the DC ammeter in series with the cathode and the RF emission. Or more probably, it might appear when these become particularly strong.
• I'm considering trying completely different electrolytes than what I used so far, e.g. KNO3, KHSO4 (or the cheaper alternative NaHSO4, of which I might already have a canister somewhere)—which should be an acid—, K2SO4, but I'm not completely sure about safety aspects or if they may generate too strong smells when they decompose.

EDIT: a brief test with K2CO3—which surprisingly I haven't used so far in the cathodic electrolytic plasma reaction I have described in the past few weeks—gave the same effects and issues that I have observed with KOH, using similar concentrations. However, it will be probably less aggressive on the same glass container.

EDIT2: from another test with K2CO3, but using an old but charged 12V battery (instead of the good 24V battery pack), it seems as if the battery voltage spike effect is much easier to see at a lower input voltage to the high voltage converter. It's difficult to gauge exact battery usage with short tests (voltage spontaneously rises after removing load), but it is not getting recharged, even if measured battery voltage when the incandescent plasma is active constantly spikes above 13V (often much more than this).

I did not measure RF specifically this time, but apparently RF noise was so bad it caused my DSL router to lose its internet connection once, even if I just used battery power (no noise injected directly in the power line). The "minimum" red line in the upper graph below from the router control panel shows that the peak disturbance was particularly large.

Mark U

I'm not an expert either and mostly only have experience with cheap models, but as far as I am aware of, depending on the meter, the True RMS capability might not operate in all modes, or might need a regular waveform (even if highly distorted) to give reliable results.

The Peaktech 3430 manual mentions:

Quote

True RMS Measurements

This model measures AC voltages and currents in True RMS and is therefore independent of the waveform to make an accurate measurement. Most alternating voltages and currents are expressed in rms values called the root meander (RMS) value. The RMS value is the square root of the averaging of the square of AC voltage or current value. But they actually measure the average value of the input voltage or current assuming that the voltage or current is a sine wave. Therefore, rectifier circuit multimeters are faulty if the input voltage or the current has a waveform other than a sine wave.

Rob Woudenberg

If he is somehow measuring only or mostly the output spikes, then I guess that would remove the observed effect.

Rob Woudenberg

I think the general idea here is that the plasma disturbance itself is an anomaly worth harnessing rather than filtering/blocking out.

On a related note, here is the relevant excerpt about AC from the Stockholm presentation that I transcribed when the full video got released. It seems to translate relatively well to English with Google Translate:

* * *

[1:28:52] [Vassallo] Ma c'è anche una produzione di energia elettrica oltre quella termica?

[Fabiani] Che domanda!

[Rossi] Noi facciamo la termica.

[Vassallo] (*inaudible*)

[Rossi] No, ho capito… no, la sua domanda è più profonda…

[Fabiani] Me l'ha fatta prima!

[Rossi] Lui ha chiesto dell'energia elettrica diretta. Ci stiamo lavorando. C'è.

[1:29:08] [Fabiani] Ci fa delle domande capziose, il professore! *laughs*

[Rossi] No. Ho detto c'è, c'è. C'è. Ma non siamo ancora capaci di…

[Vassallo] Ci diamo del Tu, abbiamo detto, no?

[Rossi] Sì, sì, Scusa. C'è, ma non siamo ancora capaci di usarla(?). C'è. Perché, vediamo dall'oscilloscopio che, noi, quando… quando lo usiamo in un altro modo, noi vediamo… noi sappiamo benissimo che troviamo solo corrente che si muove in un solo lato(?) su un tempo quadrato(??). Noi lo vediamo benissimo. Però, con l'oscilloscopio, vediamo - no? - usandolo in un altro modo, che c'è una corrente… sotto, che non è nostra. Secondo me (*inaudible*) non può essere nostra. (*inaudible*) Noi qui dentro facciamo corrente continua. Abbiamo un'alternata, ma facciamo la continua. Poi ci troviamo dell'alternata che non può essere, non può essere nostra.

[Levi] Esatto.

[Rossi] Non siamo ancora capaci di… ma c'è.

[Vassallo] Ok. Se tanto va… quindi però se c'è, qua è dissipata.

[Rossi] Sì, viene… viene termalizzata.

[Vassallo] Viene dissipata.

[Rossi] Viene termalizzata.

[Vassallo] Va bene.

The plasma output might be high frequency AC or anyhow alternating pulses of very brief duration. In the Stockholm presentation (the unedited version) Rossi also suggested something along these lines (in Italian while discussing with other people, at about 1:28:30 if you have access to the video).

I'm not sure how AC ammeters would respond to this sort of type of signal, but in my own plasma electrolysis tests using a standard DC ammeter in series with the cathode, under certain conditions when RF noise is the highest I get values close to 0 A or even negative current values. I'm assuming that's when the output is oscillating the most.

Quote from Alan Fletcher

I would put an oscilloscope across the load resistor to ensure there are no suspicious waveforms that could fool the ammeter.

What specifications would the oscilloscope need to have at the least? The plasma reaction may produce waveforms with significant energy up to the GHz range.

After some more testing It seems necessary to increase solution conductivity to a sufficiently high level in order to see the reverse current effect at the batteries. However, if the cathode erodes too much, conductivity decreases. It is not easy to balance with just manual operation at a high fixed voltage cathode wear and operating temperature.

So far, at best, the 24V battery pack I used does not get depleted to a significant extent when voltage oscillates at a level above its open-circuit voltage. No actual recharging seen yet. Given the extensive testing period this could still indicate an anomaly, although not by a too large margin. The HV converter is supposed to operate at an input power of 40W at maximum load, with 70W peak.

I took a video of battery voltage after switching off power to the HV converter, three times. The third time was after about 8 minutes of testing with indicated voltage constantly above 26–27V during load conditions.

The 0.45mm tungsten wire got consumed significantly in the process, so it could still be that I'm just "converting" it into electricity—that is, if a reduced or null effective power consumption when the plasma reaction occurs could be indeed confirmed.

I ended up using 5ml 0.1M KOH and about 2.5g acetone in 45 ml tap water. Water evaporates relatively quickly, so the level remained more or less constant from the beginning to the end. RF disturbances at a local level and observed at the DSL/telephone line were still quite present.

EDIT 2020-11-07: these are the power-off battery voltage curves from the video above: