Posts by ZenoOfElea

Quote from monty

With "great" power comes "great" responsibility

With great power comes a large utility bill - unless you are Rossi of course.

AnotherTroll

So fascinating how some people process information. So let me see if I can follow this.

So we now have a big pile of anti-Rossi evidence that supports Rossi is a liar and fraudster.

The pro-Rossi evidence that Rossi supporters relied on has not much left to latch onto and is mostly unsupported or Rossi says (but we know he is a liar).

So lets all ignore that then!!!

Lets look at the pile of anti-Rossi evidence and compare it to the pile of anti-IH evidence and imagine that the anti-Rossi pile is somehow smaller and so that means the blame goes to IH so Rossi wins and IH loses, which in turn means that Rossi must be right so the E-Cat must be real.

Yep, Dewey is right, you really are from another planet.

Jed

After reading your comments about the current dearth of LENR research I would be interested on your view of this rather upbeat link;

http://www.anthropoceneinstitute.com/lenraries/

Apologies if this has been brought up before.

So are these tax returns from Leonardo likely to prove/disprove whether Rossi sold any 1 MW plants to customers?

Jed

You say it is beyond your comprehension why people do not just look at the data and reach the same conclusion as yourself.

What is obvious to you is not obvious to a layman like myself.

While I understand the statistical point of a lack of variance in the data I do not understand the context in which the data was gathered.

I could take your word for it, but Jed says or Rossi says is all the same to me because I cannot judge, although it sure smells fishy.

As I have said before, a rigorous replication by a reputable science lab of the Ecat or a sale of working products would convince me of the reality. But I doubt that will happen. On the other hand evidence in court may well provide conclusive evidence of Rossi as a fraud, we shall see.

What I do not understand is the story of Rossi as a clever fraudster who fools smart people like science professors and rich investors like Darden and yet when it comes to the one year test and $89 million is at stake, surely the home run for Rossi (if he is a con man) then he did not even bother trying, just lazy and obvious fake data (according to you). He could have just copied data from somewhere else or been creative, or had it computer generated, it makes no sense.

I think from the get go something like Rossi splits people.

So many will think it is too good to be true, whereas many will wish and hope very strongly that it is true. I guess that comes from the mindset you bring.

Personally I tried to start from 50/50 and see what came out, but it seemed that Rossi had so much noise around him, Smart people looking at his wonderful invention, Smart investors giving him money. Commentators like Matts who were convinced it was real. Surely this must amount to something one might think. And yet there is much noise and not many facts.

A big factor is the environment. Look at some new breaking news, how it is discussed on a pro Rossi forum or an anti-Rossi forum to see how differently it is interpreted.

At least LENR Forum still has people willing to pitch for both sides of the argument, otherwise this becomes just another echo chamber.

While Jed and some with professional knowledge are convinced of the falseness of the data to most of us lay people we want a simple but conclusive answer, yes or no.

That would involve either an independent test of the technology; or selling actual devices to market; or a court case.

I am now 99% convinced Rossi is fake but the court case will be conclusive for me.

I find it fascinating how many are suspicious and do not trust the scientific evidence for climate change and yet accept Rossi based on what he says.

There was a famous psychological study years ago about a cult that announced a great flood. The believers gathered in a room at the appointed time.

When the calamity did not happen they just modified their belief but never acknowledged they were wrong.

http://www.slate.com/articles/…011/05/prophecy_fail.html

I suppose even after the court case some will choose not to accept it.

We learn all the time. None of use are truly safe from being fooled.

Conspiracy theories are a waste of time.

They take the "facts" they want and follow the logic they want.

They are asymmetric so that even if Rossi stood up in court and admitted it was all a fraud then some would say "Ah but he has been forced to say that, it is a conspiracy to cover up his Ecat", but if Darden visits the White House for a charity event, then of course it proves he is part of the conspiracy. No lose situation.

So the only useful path is scientific data. Does BG have any new scientific data to back up his assertions? Any new research to bring to the table? If he cannot produce that then the rest is just a conspiracy theory.

Well this is bad.

Bob seems to have turned into a prophet.

He is referencing scripture and predicting dire calamities.

This is a personal tragedy for Bob and his family.

This is a big problem for MFMP and their credibility as Bob is so linked to them as a spokesman and those who wish to can use this in a bad way.

I wish Bob well and hope he recovers speedily from what has the appearance of a mental breakdown or psychological episode.

I hope the MFMP can recover from this quickly and continue to make good progress.

A bad day for LENR.

Axil

I apologise for my somewhat sarcastic tone, it is not an adult way to conduct a discussion.

My view is that LENR is real and our best and possibly only option at the moment.

LENR may turn out not to be commercially viable.

LENR may turn out to have problems or risks.

We are still at the early stages and need to do the work, even if there were other competing technologies.

So what else is there?

Chemical reactions won't provide the kind of energy output you are looking for so it will need to be nuclear.

I am aware of BLP, which I am sceptical of, so I will wait and watch, to see if they do in fact have anything.

So IMHO for purposes of this thread it would be difficult to make a list of imminent energy breakthroughs, but not difficult to make a list of crackpots and conmen such as Steorn.

After the Rossi debacle I will want to see solid evidence of any miracle energy claims, I am not interested in secrets and pseudoscience.

Who knows in 50 years maybe they will find a way to make hot fusion work, or solar power beamed down from space, or some undreamed of technology will provide all our energy. But that is not what we have today.

Good idea, lets ditch LENR and focus on one of the many other clean, overunity energy technologies.

Just remind me again what they are?

Quote from oldguy

Eric,

Remember Darden said they cut back from a dozen to a half dozen supported researchers (I take "dozen" as a general term not numerical).

I can't find it now, but Dewey mentioned something encouraging along the lines of seeing interesting results from IH's other supported work, although years away from commercialization.

I cannot but hope that when the Rossi mess is cleaned up that they will tap their "benefactors" for greater support. I would think they would not want to hold much cash until this is all over. Woodford is known for their long term outlook on investments.

oldguy

I just checked one of the articles and Darden refers to "a dozen avenues Industrial Heat was exploring. Of those 12, Industrial Heat has halted or slowed funding on about half, he says, adding that the management team feels “increasingly good” about the remaining avenues."

Whether each "avenue" is one researcher or a team we do not know.

I would hope that they also have additional researchers and specialists either as part of the in-house team, or available as needed for evaluation, advice etc.

Quote from axil

IH would be well served to release all the Rossi provided INFO involving the Rossi reaction to the open source community to allow that community to run tests to see if Rossi's technology is a fraud. This verification would support IH in their claims about Rossi.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

Dubious that this would in any way be helpful.

First it might well be siezed upon by certain parties as a breaking of professional agreements to release such information. Another thing to attack IH with.

In any case I do not think IH would ever be so unprofessional as to do this.

Second there is always the argument IH wasted a lot of time unable to replicate because Rossi held back some secret ingredient.

So in releasing an incomplete system it would only result in more people wasting time and prove nothing.

Dewey

I know it is fun and easy to take a pot shot at Rossi fans.

But, will all due respect, it takes two to tango (in this case Rossi needed IH as his partner).

This field is full of cow pats, by which I mean poor science, smart but possibly self-deluding experimenters, and at least one fraudster.

Has the lesson been learned from Rossi?

Has IH put in place improved evaluation measures to make sure they do not make such a mistake again?

THHuxley and Zephir; Some good and fair points.

Theory would be nice to have, and would speed up research and development.

Some say LENR can be explained within Standard Model, others say it requires exotic physics. It would certainly be easier to move forward with a theory that does not disrupt Standard Model, but less exciting.

But as Zephir says not all physics mechanisms have a solid theory. All those who claim LENR cannot be accepted till it has a working theory are wrong IMHO.

As THHuxley says the most fruitful approach at the moment seems to be the experimental approach but of course, without a deep understanding and no theory to provide a roadmap then progress is slow.

Additionally the secrecy of individuals and small groups who do not want to share their results slows progress further and leaves the field open to concerns of poor quality research and even fraud.

This is understandable considering the prize but is not ideal.

I also have watched Steorn since 2006.

Bloke in a small industiral unit in Ireland overnight invents a perpetual motion machine.

I started with an open mind, he was going to run a public demo in London and after all "You never know".

Guess what, it was a big fraud (I am going to put "allegedly" in here because lawyers are always looking for business).

But you cannot prove a negative so of course people are always free to believe that maybe Sean was nobbled by the CIA or space aliens.

All the classic fraud signs, lots of PR and rumours, lots of secrecy, lots of claims, criticism of established science.

When the story goes a bit flat just change the invention and unveil Orbo v2 etc. And of course money, allegedly 20 million euros.

Well surely all his supporters and investors cannot be mistaken. Yep.

Well surely if he was a conman he would not start a process to sell products. Yep.

So guess what, nothing. In fact there was a total absence of real science, data, facts, proof or any of that stuff.

Sean's real talent was the ability to tell stories.

I have to say McCarthy picked a difficult but well trodden area, perpetual motion. The scientific case against perpetual motion is very solid and anyone who claims otherwise needs to show some really strong, bullet proof evidence. But he managed to sell it to enough people.

At least in the cold fusion/lenr there is lots of uncertainty and complexity so plenty of wiggle room to run scam demos, scam theories etc.

Just reading through this so interesting thread.

I have been trying to make sense of the Rossi story for over a year now.

Some days I thought he was a fraud.

Other days it seemed he must have what he claims.

There are certainly lots of confusion and claims and secrets and dare I say flim-flam.

We have the science story, the technical story, the legal story, the investment story.

We have Jed Rothwell and Krivit on one side and on the other side we have Frank Acland and Mats Lewan, all genuine and honest investigators.

Rossi has had Focardi, Fabiani and Darden and many other smart people believing in him at some point.

All of which may turn out to be based on nothing at all.

One thought I would like to bring up for comment.

It has been said that IH gave Rossi $10 million. Surely if Rossi was stuck for investment in his great invention then this would be his big chance to channel that money into making his dream come true. To purchase better equipment. Start some manufacturing perhaps.

But allegedly he put the money into real-estate.

To me that is very telling behaviour. He finally has some serious money and the most important thing he can do with it is sink it into real-estate. Like REALLY!!!

From Scientific American

https://www.scientificamerican…-to-tax-carbon-emissions/

Well whoda thunk it!!!

oldguy

I do know something about investments, although I am not a rich investor, just what I can save from my salary.

There are indeed plenty of investors who have no clue and are just desperate to throw their money at something.

Even Steorn was able to get 20 million euros just through talking tosh with no sign of a working device.

But I agree that those who are rich enough, and in the right place at the right time, and able to stand the risk, can get a golden ticket that the rest of us maybe cannot.

I share the hope of a wonderful technological breakthrough, humanity needs LENR.

I share in the sheer entertainment and drama of the Rossi shenanigans.

But an additional personal reason is that some of my money is in Woodford's funds, so I am watching with interest.

Quote from oldguy

I have posted this before but checkout Darden's interview with M. Macy

http://www.infinite-energy.com…/pdfs/DardenInterview.pdf

"You are also supporting good

longtime researchers in this field like MIT’s Peter Hagelstein,

Dennis Letts, high profile newcomers like Brillouin among

others." There are others but this should get you started.

Display More

Interesting because Mats Lewin has stated yesterday on e-catworld.

“Brillouin representatives told me last year that they have no formal or informal contacts with IH, although Darden apparently made a small investment in Brillouin, but before forming IH.”

So we have two stories.

One says IH are smart investors who are supporting Brillouin and other key developers in the LENR field.

The other story says IH are not involved with Brillouin. But in 2012 they did throw some money at Rossi and got Woodford involved. Then they failed to expend any effort to set up the "Guaranteed Performance Test" forcing Rossi to set something up himself. Then, eventually, after four years IH decided Rossi was a fake.

So do we have smart investors who are willing to take a chance on LENR, or do we have a bunch of investors who do not really have a clue what they are doing and backed the wrong horse?