Posts by ZenoOfElea

To those who criticise the balance of Rossi supporters.

I think the balance would have been more even around a year ago.

As more evidence has come out many have changed their mind on Rossi (such as Shane and myself). That is in large part due to Rossi himself.

I suspect on ECW many who lost faith with Rossi just stopped posting. ECW is now Rossi faithful for the most part.

I expect as time goes on the numbers of Rossi faithful will continue to decline, but no-one will ever prove that the E-Cat does not exist.

I don't see many personal attacks on this board but certainly cases of personal insults and grouchiness, which are regretable, and occasional bouts of evangelising, but in general it is a good place to freely debate and the moderators try to keep a good balance IMHO.

There is interesting discussion of technical, legal and all other aspects of this whole Rossi caper.

And even some discusion of LENR on occasion

For those who take the view that the evidence is clear on Rossi, it is an intriguing mystery, as to how those who still believe can make their case stand up.

That is one of the reasons I comment.

It is interesting to read the Rionrlty and IHFB take on events.

Of course there are some who have no facts or interpretation to add, merely protest, and that is not good enough to waste time commenting on.

@IHFB

Around a year ago I was 50/50 on believing Rossi.

The difference between us is I have had my wake up to Rossi moment.

You still have yours to come.

Whether Rossi wins or loses the court case will not prove either way if he has a working invention.

If another year goes by and Rossi does not sell any product, or another two years, at what point will you lose your faith?

I am sure there will be some that even if Rossi never proved his device or sold any would still stick with him. I like to think you are a bit smarter than that.

Zeno

By the way, I do value your persistence, you could go to ECW and fit in fine. Here you are a bit in the lion's den, so points for that.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I think you fundamentally misunderstand Rossi. I've never felt he was in this for the money. He had a successful business in the U.S. and a comfortable life before dropping it all to pursue his invention. On the other hand, I've always felt the folks behind IH were in it for the money.

Of course Rossi is in it for the money.

There are many calling on Rossi to release his invention to the world to save lives. Rossi has chosen not to do this.

Instead he has spent years going from one backer to the next. He now has $11 million dollars.

A year ago he had three choices.

He is not poor so he can now release his invention free and gain adulation, Nobel prize etc. Nope not not going to do that.

He can do solid, indisputable demonstration of his invention and have businesses throwing money at him for the possibility of being a partner. Nope not going to do that.

He can take IH to court to try to win a massive amount of money. That is the choice he made. That is the choice that does not require a demonstration of his fake invention and gives him a chance for lots of money.

SO OF COURSE IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY!

And if he gets the money it will likely close down IH and any funding of LENR that they are involved with.

@Bob

It is very simple.

Conspiracy Theory 101.

When IH submit evidence it is really PR.

When IH say anything it is clearly lies.

When IH say nothing they are clearly hiding something.

Quote from Jack Cole

The parade of astroturfing sock puppets continues.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2017…ith-report-from-the-jonp/

Of course he cannot comment on ongoing litigation.

Fortunately, he has "readers" who can speak for him. I seriously hope IH subpoenaed the raw comment logs from his wordpress blog showing the IP addresses.

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I would expect that with all Rossi's blogging the JONP might well provide a gold mine of interesting Rossi quotes for the jury to hear.

Quote from Roger

Do you realize how much ad hoc theories you have to create in order to come to the conclusion that it's not a banal business/IP dispute about an extraordinary invention, but an epic story of lies and deceit woven by a super crafty indomitable hypnotist playing tricks on the minds of way more than average people from scientific, military and private business (financial and industrial) backgrounds, over the course of 10+ years, and several continents?

Roger,

You are setting up extremes, perhaps that is how your mind works.

If you want to take on extraordinary, ad-hoc conspiracy theories go to ECW where everyone who disagrees with Rossi is a liar, or part of some conspiracy.

Where Engineer48 is the resident expert and anyone who wants to take part in a technical discussion with him, such as Paradigmnoia or THH gets banned.

It is quite possible to run a fake invention over ten years and con people out of millions of dollars.

This has been done many times, the latest was Orbo it wasn’t even a very good con, “I’ve got a perpetual motion machine, who wants to give me money?”

Rossi is not a “super crafty indomitable hypnotist”.

Nor is he a genius with an extraordinary, world saving invention, he is just a very naughty boy

[ref Life of Brian].

Robot factories - fake.

JMP customer – fake.

Other customers he keeps mentioning over the years – fake.

Disappearing heat exchanger – fake.

Independent tests with Rossi not meddling – fake.

Wasn’t he promising the imminent opening of a factory in Sweden a few years ago, what happened to that?

Hmmm, could there possibly be a pattern here?

I think his Ecat is vaporware but without the vapor.

The 1MW test was rendered useless by Rossi. The data cannot be checked, raw data deleted by Rossi, emails deleted, and equipment removed Penon and Fabiani left the country. Hence all the ad-hoc theorizing.

So Roger either he is inept or he is hiding something, which do you think it is?

Well we can always go back to the three basic plots;

1. The QuarkX is genuine and Rossi is having a meeting with potential customers or manufacturers or possibly staff.

2. Rossi is a fraud and this setup is just a visual setup equivalent to Rossi talking to himself on JONP. If one wanted to be hyper skeptical we can only see one head and that could be a dummy.

3. Rossi is delusional and he thinks he is explaining to a bunch of devotees how he is going to save the world.

andrea.s

I could be wrong of course, but I cannot imagine Rossi giving a training course in electric theory like some kind of lecturer.

First he does not need the money.

Second he surely has more important things to do with his time such as saving the world and winning the court case.

Third, generally training courses in electrical theory are not done under NDA and he is supposedly showing detailed insights into the QuarkX.

So it must be something to do with the QuarkX product.

Which suggests technical staff or sales staff for Leonardo or possibly a customer.

But there is no product supposedly so Leonardo does not need staff and nor does it have customers.

Rob Woudenberg seems a more logical guess.

Oh wait, I forgot that when it comes to logic vs Rossi then Rossi tends to win.

It might be helpful to know the date when this took place.

Rossi does it again with raising the confusion metric. Or maybe it is just me that is confused. Or mabye Rossi is confused.

Andrea Rossi April 6, 2017 at 6:12 AM

H-G Branzell:

The whiteboard photo has been published without my authorization after being done during a professional training under NDA in the meeting room of Leonardo Corporation’s factory.

I am ot going to comment on it.

Warm Regards

A.R.

I am curious about the phrase "professional training under NDA".

I thought Rossi was secretive and did not have any products to sell.

So in that case who would he be training?

Could it be staff, what does he need the staff for?

Or customers or a sales team?

Any guesses what is going on here?

Quote from IH Fanboy

That's because there is no evidence. There is a Smith-says in a report with no substantiation about the "no holes" statement, a statement that was not made under oath. Jed takes everything fed to him by IH as absolute fact, without question.

Jed even continues to believe things (i.e., DN40 exit pipe) even after Dewey himself backed off from the claim. He might even continue to believe it still. I've never seen him retract his past statements on this, other than to say it doesn't matter now. But that really isn't an honest retraction.

That is funny. There is no evidence that there are no holes.

That is how low this discussion has sunk.

The even more hilarious thing is IHFB keeps demanding evidence and want absolute facts and not hearsay and yet Rossi produces no proof that his eCat works and people believe him. Go figure.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Of further interest is that this characteristic of Rossi can't directly be why he keeps his cult of followers. It stinks to high heaven. It can indirectly be that, because it allows Rossi to be absolutely convincing, with extraordinary supporting detail, in all of his fantasies. Mats has always had as one reason for steadfast belief in Rossi that Rossi's character, even though clearly imperfect, does not fit a fraud. In addition, Rossi has always chosen areas of endeavor that key in to his target audience's ardent desires.

I think Rossi does show many of the features of a fraudster.

He has history that supports this including jailtime. Fraudsters often have a history of such behaviour. Rossi supporters would say this conviction was a setup.

He offers something that is just a bit too good to be true, but that many people have a strong desire to believe in. See Orbo. Rossi supporters might reference the Wright Brothers.

He is secretive about his product which is understandable, but also controlling to the extent of refusing to let IH staff on site and removing any measuring device he does not supply. That is odd.

He is big on promises and short on delivery.

He makes a big story about one invention but then just when that invention should be on sale he drops it and moves to his next invention, classic strategy for fraudsters to keep the story running and the excitement building. E-Cat no, don't want to talk about that anymore, have you heard about the QuarkX?

Critics are branded as skeptopaths or somehow part of a plot to undermine the great inventor. It's funny how Rossi makes a big thing of how he does not trust others and uses a small clique of associates and yet when he removes IH equipment and puts his own in he is surprised when IH say they do not trust him.

He has been caught being devious, duplicitous, and lying.

And the big number two on the list LARGE SUMS OF MONEY ARE INVOLVED.

And the big number one on the list; he WILL NOT/CAN NOT DEMONSTRATE WHAT HE HAS IN A CLEAR AND UNAMBIGUOUS MANNER.

Now none of these PROVE that Rossi is a fraudster. They are merely indicative.

Rossi lives in that area between what we know as fact and what we cannot prove. As such he is very good at getting experts and scientists to provide him with enough support so that there is always doubt.

Roger

Rossi vs IH.

I may be wrong, but as I understand it if Rossi wins, that presumably means the test is valid and IH pays him $89m (perhaps with damages) but I do not think that means that IH lose the IP which they have paid for.

IH vs Rossi

Again IMHO for IH to win their case they have to demonstrate that Rossi did not deliver what they paid him for, in fact he delivered nothing.

This whole case can be blown up into the air simply by Rossi demonstrating that he has what he says.

Very simple for Rossi to do this.

But no, with Rossi it is always secrecy and duplicity.

Why go through the court route and all the other shenanigans when there is a simple way for him to prove what he has.

Do you think he is going to pull out a Big Frankie in front of the judge?

Quote from Roger

Reality is evasive to intellect, mind and senses. Achilles bridges half the distance between him and the turtle, but there is always half the distance left to cover, then another half, then another half... Achilles never actually outpaces the turtle.

Rossi gives the know-how to build reactors to IH/Cherokee/etc, they build Ni-H based reactors, test them and witness significant excess heat (back in 2013) but there's always the Internet Emissivity Experts to convince... there never was any excess heat.

Rossi sets up some kind of system to use heat from the plant and transform whatever in a big black box, after falling out of a deal with Johnson Matthey... there never was any heat nor transformation of none product in that big black box which was really either 1) a small fan or 2) a radiator

Achilles and the turtle, yes I know, I am after all Zeno of Elea.

Here is my position.

On the technical parts we have Rossi's expert witness and IH's expert disagreeing.

I read qualified people on this board, such as Para and Huxley telling me that the pipe circuit cannot work as Rossi claims.

On ECat World there are other qualified people such as Engineer48 who claim it does.

So basically on the technical side, I an not able to make a judgement and I will watch from the sidelines.

On the customer side, well that is settled, Rossi lied and it was a fake setup. If you do not accept that then I am not going to waste time going over basic issues that are in fact settled.

There are 89 million reasons for Rossi to finally prove that he has what he says he has, and yet he doesn't, I think that is because he cannot. That is my opinion.

Around 5 hours ago you posted the letter from J T Vaughan. This has also been gone over repeatedly so I am not sure why you are dragging basic things up.

IH said initially they had some promising results, later they changed their minds. So according to your view that must make them dishonest.

I guess that puts you in a difficult position. You think Rossi is genuine, that puts you in a diminishing group as myself and others change our minds in light of the new evidence. But according to you if someone gets new information and changes their mind that makes them dishonest.

So why are you here?

What are you hoping for?

Bit evasive, neither a yes or a no.

You do know that Rossi has admitted there was no customer, it was a fake setup.

So with no customer do you still think there was some production going on with platinum sponges?

If so then convince me, what information do you base your belief on?

Roger

We have been around this so many times now.

So just to be absolutely clear.

You think it is possible that Rossi was providing energy for some kind of production (possibly platinum sponges) for JM Products.

Is that actually what you are stating?

Quote from ultrasure

Up for discussion and conveniently being ignored while the others are away.

let's talk about ...

Why is it Important for Darden/Industrial Heat to take Control of the LENR-FORUM?

This list disclosed in court documents. Have a look at this list from 214-35: Now You Know

http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe…ontrol-of-the-lenr-forum/

let's see how fast they try and bury this list.)

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Hurrah I'm on a list.

This is hilarious. But also slightly scary, I have never been on a conspiracy theory list before.

Not sure what I did, but then it's all in Sifferkoll's mind so WTF.

I mean any moron can get 2 + 2 = 5.

Not that I think Sifferkoll is a moron, I just think he has too much imagination and not enough discrimination.

How about if Sifferkoll is really working for Rossi.

Or perhaps Sifferkoll really is Rossi.

Or perhaps Sifferkoll is really working for IH by planting really, really stupid theories to make the Rossi side look bad.

Imaginary conversation between Darden and APCO.

Darden "We want to employ your skills."

APCO "Sure you want to take over some country."

Darden "No we want you to infiltrate and take over an Internet board."

APCO "OK so does it have tens of thousands of followers and is it a nexus for opinion formation like Facebook or Twitter?"

Darden "No it's a small board with maybe a few hundred followers."

APCO "OK will the members of the trial jury be influenced by this board?"

Darden "Unlikely they even would know it exists."

APCO "OK sounds great."

Meanwhile in the real world, if the IH/APCO team were any good then its not working too well is it?

On their side they have;

Dewey - who supposedly can supply some actual inside information, but lately he's been mostly making a bit of a pratt of himself with "Planet Rossi" and "bring it on" and "Rossibots is going to get what is coming in from orbit etc".

IH not looking too clever with giving Rossi $10 million.

And worse, rather than keeping it quiet it's all coming out in a public trial.

And yet Sifferkoll thinks this is all a well managed conspiracy.

You know of course that Rossi could blow all this "well managed conspiracy" up in the air at any point by actually proving that he has what he says. Wonder why he doesn't do that?

Ultrasure, any ideas?

We already had a bunch of trolls with nothing to add but conspiracy theories and insults.

For a while this board was getting unpleasant.

Thankfully the moderators have taken action.

I hope we do not now get into a slagging match between LENR-Forum and ECW.

I am sure there are some that would love to stoke this and then feed off the anger and bitterness. There are already signs of this on ECW and accusations are emerging on both boards.

Hopefully we can try to remain polite and civilized. I value input from all sides in this drama.

Quote from JedRothwell

They could be the worst thieves in the world, but they still cannot steal the IP by this method. As I said, assuming the gadget works, as soon as they try to sell it, Rossi will join forces with powerful people and come down on them like a ton of bricks. The powerful people will join with him not because they like him, but because they see hundreds of billions of dollars on the table, there for the taking. I.H. would be totally defenseless.

I don't know. I have not read the IH internal email. I got that information from Penon's data. I.H. says there is no heat, and based on that data, I concur.

That was not written by APCO.

Jed, you miss my point. My comment was directed specifically at ele and those who make a big deal about IH motives and actions.

There is a ridiculous argument being peddled by a few that if IH are really bad then somehow it excuses all Rossi's questionable actions and perhaps even points to Rossi having what he claims.

We can debate it (IH side) but it is irrelevent to the central issue which is Rossi, after all the failed business partnerships, all the drama, all the promises and lies has produced exactly zero in terms of a product. All he has to do is produce something and demonstrate categorically that it works.

The $80 million from the court case would then be peanuts and Rossi would have IH and others fighting to throw money at him and possibly the Nobel prize that he wants.

The only reason I can think of why he wouldn't is because he has nothing.

Quote from ele

But IH have no more the rights to use that technology. For sure they want it for free and they would like to destroy Rossi but I'm also quite sure that there are other more honest industries that will buy The ECAT technology.

ele

I do not know the motivations of Darden and the rest at IH. Maybe they are angels, maybe they are devils. Maybe they are crooks.

But let us assume that Darden and the rest at IH are the worst kind of people.

Okay fine but none of that changes the reality of Rossi.

He has moved from one version of the Ecat to another.

He claims the ECat works but then moves onto the QuarkX.

Forget IH, I just want Rossi to sell a working product to anyone, but after many years and many claims we have no show.

I think if you were relying on Rossi to heat your house you would have given up by now and decided to find another solution.

Whether you or I support Eric or not is against the point, he is a moderator so get over it.

I agree it is a difficult job, in fact an impossible job to balance this, there is no balance for some in this discussion. The best we can hope for is politeness and good manners.

I have watched as Dewey has acted like a 5 year old in his gleeful insults. (Yeh I understand the history that he says has caused such an anti-Rossi mindset).

As Jed has gotten more tetchy and pretty much said that people who are not technical experts should stay out of the debate, yeh good luck with that.

The difference is that they actually add some real details and value to the discussion due to their backgrounds.

Banning a troll who just makes sarcastic comments and ad-hom attacks with nothing of value is an easy decision, no loss to the board.

Banning someone who makes sarcastic comments and ad-hom attacks but adds interesting insights and details is the tricky one.

I hope this forum does not turn into an echo chamber for one side only.