[IMPORTANT] Trolling and insulting users / Forum rules

  • Thomas Clarke: I dislike skepticism in any form, because it is telling how you are limited. Why to not be open minded to agree that there are many unknown things that we are not understanding?
    Do you really think that you know everything? If so, then the only explanation for this behavior is, that you are god.
    Skepticism is the main obstacle to find a new things. Without skeptics like you progress and development will be much faster.
    Without belief, you are just a poor man. This is what I think.


    Nearly anything that you can imagine is possible, it just need time and patience.


    If you are true, then mankind can't do any progress in any way. You should study our history to know more about our future.
    We are at the beginning with science. I hope that you will live for next 50 years to see that you were completely wrong.

  • me356:


    I disagree with pretty well everything you have said and implied above.


    Skepticism is about not rushing to belief or disbelief. I guess there are domains within which nearly everything you can imagine is possible, but science is not one of them. For a scientist imagination is constrained by a vast amount of past observation and the (scientific) assumption that physical laws are unlikely suddenly to change.


    That means new theory needs to be compatible with past data (of which we have a lot).


    LENR is essentially a theoretical construct. LENR Skeptics don't disagree about the various reported results, they just reckon nuclear reactions are not the most likely explanation for them.


    As for progress - we will most likely have human-level intelligent AI within 30 years unless there is some major disruption of our civilisation. That disproves your last statement.

  • IMHO. At different steps of development of anything new, the different things are useful.
    For generation of new idea scepticism is poison, killing the new thing. Imagination and open mind is only the source of the new idea.
    For the next step, to proof a new idea and to polish this idea constructive scepticism is useful.


    LENR research is at the stage of transition from new newborn to starting to walk level. F&P initiated LENR, Rossi is already making babysitting :) .


    If somebody considers that LENR is not real, why they are here at this forum at all ? IMHO this forum for people who accepted reality of LENR and would like to understand LENR in all details and to develop LENR technology. All sceptics about reality of LENR should find a new place for their conspiracy fraud insights.

  • Thomas Clarke: There are working devices around the world that are using cold fusion for very long time. Fusion, even at room temperature is working - there is absolutely no doubt about it. And there are many more nuclear processes that are working as well. LENR is known for 100 years now, you can find papers about it.
    You will recall my words very soon.

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    Nearly anything that you can imagine is possible, it just need time and patience.


    This is simply wrong. I have been raising a herd of pink, invisible, flying unicorns for decades now. They harvest zero point energy and they are made of dark matter. With time and patience, I can prove these are real? Why not, if anything is possible?


    As Thomas Clarke said, new discoveries and theories have to be compatible with existing natural laws, inasmuch as such laws are well documented, structured and proven. Nothing will ever overturn Newton's laws of motion **for the domain of size and speed for which they were tested**. Sure, relativity and quantum mechanics add to our knowledge of motion **outside** of the range Newton studied. They don't negate Newton. They simply extend his findings. And so it is with conservation of energy and so on. The discovery of radioactivity, the discovery of neutrinos, the ability to fly with heavier than air objects-- none of that negated earlier natural laws. And of course, myriads of other examples exist.


    But not everything is possible and some things are possible only very rarely. This relates to the classical statement that you should keep your mind open but not so open your brains fall out.


    I have no idea whether or not LENR is possible. The Coulomb repulsion force makes it at best unlikely but not impossible. What I am quite confident about is that *high power* LENR has never been adequately demonstrated, independently replicated, and properly tested. And Defkalion and Rossi are the poster children for those assertions.


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    Thomas Clarke: There are working devices around the world that are using cold fusion for very long time. Fusion, even at room temperature is working - there is absolutely no doubt about it. And there are many more nuclear processes that are working as well. LENR is known for 100 years now, you can find papers about it.
    You will recall my words very soon.


    Like many believers and enthusiasts, you confuse claims for properly documented and replicated facts. Muon-catalyzed fusion is real but not yet useful (by far). Fusors are real but they are hot fusion. And soon (s∞n or SooN)™ has been promised by Rossi since 2007 and it has never come. Same is true of Steorn since 2006. Perhaps soon is just another fantasy.

  • Mary Yugo: You have not understood what I have said.


    To show you example why you are wrong - for example for very long time people believed that earth is flat. Everybody believed in it and there were evidences that it is true.
    But fortunately there were open minded people and proved that it was wrong. You have mentioned flying - yes, also for this was evidence, that it can't never work. All known laws at this time just denied it.
    Nearly for each groundbreaking things there were 99,999% of skeptics and only few which found that all people were wrong.
    And now, it is very same with LENR.


    Tell me one reason, why current physics theories are complete and can't be wrong? Because we have not find evidence for this, yet? Very poor argument.
    We even don't understand and can't link quantum physics with classic physics. And this is one of a major flaws. LENR is maybe few levels under this knowledge that we obviously don't have.


    It is very funny how people today are thinking how good they are. People will be always erroneous.

  • Following are reasons I like this forum: First, there is a robust debate. Second, specific items of evidence and experimental procedure are examined in detail. There's a third thing I like as well, although you don't see as much of it lately, and that's that actual hobby experiments are sometimes discussed.


    If too much normative superstructure is imposed upon what can be discussed, I think it will make it hard to have a robust debate. I would not mind stronger enforcement of norms pertaining to personal insults of people both on and off forum and a stronger evidentiary requirement for discussions of potential fraud. But those two things deal with minor annoyances and not the main bulk of what is discussed here.


    Now, these arguments definitely advance a skeptical position, but are they therefore "conspiracy theory" and to be restricted to skeptics corner? I can feel quite a few duplicate threads being posted if so...


    I don't think this is conspiracy theory at all. Lasers beaming energy into a device, or a series of implausible steps undertaken as part of an expertly executed magic show, are closer to what I think of as conspiracy theory.

  • My view is such that if there is community that is interested in LENR and we have forum like this, discussions about LENR validity shouldn't be present at all.
    LENR skeptics are simply intruders that are trying to destroy this community. And this apply to any community.


    For example - if you believe in god, you are mostly visiting places where other believers are too. And if there is somebody that is constantly saying that what you are believe is not true, then he is not welcome at all.
    You can say, he is terrorist.


    And same apply to this forum. There are possibilities to deny access in our case, just because of our interest. Yes, skepticism is good in some cases. But not now. Skeptics are good for doing measurements, checking errors in papers, but not for disintegrating community. If I was admin of this forum, I have banned them long time ago without any hesitation.


    People that are even not admitting that LENR can be possible shouldn't really visit this place.
    Admins must distinguish what is really important for this community.

  • @me356
    Interesting you should compare LENR to belief in God. So LENR is a religion to you? And critics are heretics and infidels? BTW, very few skeptics claim that LENR is "not a possibility" though many, including me, see clearly that it has never been properly proven and replicated and seems theoretically quite improbable. If you have no balance here, when crooks like Defkalion go belly up, swallowing all the investors' money, you will look foolish and gullible.


    Eric, as far as fraud is concerned, Rossi was convicted of it and served time for it, as Krivit and others amply proved with innumerable newspaper accounts. Please do not believe Rossi's self-serving and undocumented rebuttals on his own web sites. It's minor but claiming a diploma from Kensington College was also fraud. As for whether or not current claims to LENR are fraud, far as I know, the only one frequently addressed that way is, again, Rossi, and plenty of evidence is given for it -- tons of evidence starting with 2007 claims and the first patent application! But I know of noone who claims Rossi is *for sure* a fraud now, though the other main potential explanations (basically insanity) are not any more flattering. The bottom line for Rossi is that nobody who had what he claimed would behave for the last five years the way he has done unless they were lying or insane or beyond incompetent. Perhaps you should spend a few evenings (in the US anyway) watching the TV program about entrepreneurs called "Shark Tank" to see how real inventions are developed and protected.


    Of course, you are more than welcome to disagree and present evidence but I suggest that even you has to admit, what has happened with Rossi's supposed discovery is immensely bizarre and makes neither business nor scientific sense. Steorn the same for even longer. Sniffex and Dennis Lee, who I referred to as frauds are proven and punished actual legal cases of fraud. Who else do you object (specifically please) to having been called a fraud here in this forum? And by whom?

  • Hello Mary. If You really have a scientific background, that it should be easily to grasp that LENR, or whatever You call these mutation effects, has been proven enough, to no longer call it a believe. There exist plenty, fully peer reviewed papers, that were publish it highly respected journals. Just read them.
    The other aspect, namely to get useful (sustainable) amounts of energy (COP> 3 thanks to Carnot), out of LENR-Reactors is still farther away than any manned flight to the Mars. Thus for me its OK to criticize all the funny guys, which look for public attention. So its all about dialectics.
    If You blame (for e.g.) Rossi, then blame his methods. Don't blame LENR even if there is no existing – complete - theory available until know, which can fully explain the different LENR mechanisms. If You ever reviewed the accessible theories, than You should know that there are at least two completely different paths which may lead to transmutations. Further on there is an existing field where e.g Laser induced LENR is overlapping with the conventional kinetic induction of fusion.
    There are also many different ignition methods to start or induce transmutations. The method Rossi has chosen sounds like stone age and will only (when ever) supply a new form of a heater and never any electric current etc.. For me (quantum) physics is just starting to become a completely new world, which really can answer the important questions of the universe.
    Please be productive and spend Your brain to progress the human universe instead of banging around. It would be nice to read any serious LENR paper (or at least a sound review) that You contributed to.

  • AlainCo, will we ever see a post on this Forum that relates to protocol for testing and replicating hydrogen fusion at the helium producing level? Why is there a trend for endless bickering and babbling on what should be a very useful tool for discussing experimental results? I'm referring to this LENR Forum label, "The trusted Low Energy Nanoscale Reaction Community".
    Could the answer be because experimentation requires hard labor and bickering about someone else's work just requires hot air? And all exacerbated because of the limited number of scientists doing any work since the F&P days. The personal vendetta against Dr. Rossi has been amusing.
    MY your flying unicorns will become visible just be patient.

  • Why on earth would I ignore Rossi's defense, both from him and made on his behalf? I haven't the slightest interest in excusing his behavior in connection with the thermoelectric devices sold to the US military, the apartments in Florida, the factory full of robots, the degree from Kensington University, etc. But there is an outstanding claim that Rossi was exonerated by the Italian courts for all but a minor infraction. If it is correct, your assertion that he is a convicted fraud is an empty one.


    The word "fraud" is used too lightly by watchers in this field. I've heard it applied to Rossi, Defkalion, Levi et al., Bockris, Papp, and others. The only time I've seen evidence that cannot be attributed to something else is when Intelligentry was raided by the FBI. There are many circumstantial details that are of interest that fall short of clear fraud, and one can raise these details and remain factual without going beyond one's knowledge.

  • Every star in the universe is a hydrogen fusion reactor, evidently hydrogen will fuse to produce helium. The Coulomb repulsion that won't allow proton proximity leading to fusion can be overcome with an easily produced catalyst.


    This might be hard for you to believe this, but I don't believe that hydrogen fusion is the energy source of the stars, LENR is.
    This will be common knowledge when LENR is recognised by profession science.


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  • &"This might be hard for you to believe this, but I don't believe that hydrogen fusion is the energy source of the stars, LENR is."


    No, I believe. The original meaning of the acronym LENR related to nanoscale hydrogen fusion. Spectroscopy of starlight indicates the energy is from hydrogen fusion to produce helium. Nature would use the simplest reaction as an energy source, transmutation of protons to helium, then transmutation of higher amu's.

  • Quote

    My view is such that if there is community that is interested in LENR and we have forum like this, discussions about LENR validity shouldn't be present at all.LENR skeptics are simply intruders that are trying to destroy this community. And this apply to any community.


    That is a clear view, but not held by many people. There will also be many believing as you do who nevertheless think it important to gain widespread scientific recognition for LENR. How can you engage with this effort from a position of "it is proven, so I don't need to present arguments or address critics"?

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    Hello Mary. If You really have a scientific background, that it should be easily to grasp that LENR, or whatever You call these mutation effects, has been proven enough, to no longer call it a believe. There exist plenty, fully peer reviewed papers, that were publish it highly respected journals. Just read them.


    I think you confuse:
    "there are peer reviewed papers claiming X"
    with
    "X is likely to be true".


    The two are very different and the first does not logically imply the second.

  • Today, Everybody knows who was Boltzmann and his famous equations incuding entropy definition in statistical physics. I just would like you remember that when he was alive, the sientifical community considered his work as completely creazy and false. This bad behaviours conducted to his suicide.
    Boltzmann is today considered as one of the cleverest scientist of every time.
    This example should impose us to be modest and tolerant when we are in front of new things.
    This universal message is for me the base of all exchanges between people interested in sciences. Curiosity and imagination are good things in this world and have to be encouraged and never criticized.
    Franck Delplace

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    Curiosity and imagination are good things in this world and have to be encouraged and never criticized.Franck Delplace


    Curiosity and imagination are wonderful. Making false claims and contradictory claims, and giving tangential and deceptive answers when confronted are not wonderful and should be exposed and discouraged. There are too few Boltzmann's and too many Defkalion, Sniffex, and Steorns.

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    This example should impose us to be modest and tolerant when we are in front of new things.


    I'd agree - but LENR is hardly a new thing. It has been well aired over 25 years...


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    Curiosity and imagination are good things in this world and have to be encouraged and never criticized.


    That may be good advice for a parent, but if, in science, there was no criticism of imaginative hypotheses that do not stand up it would be difficult to discern the imaginative hypotheses that do stand up!