Steven Krivit vs. Andrea Rossi - Why?

Quote from Paradigmnoia

<sarcasm> Perhaps we misinterpret "crush the test" as well....</sarcasm>

By this time, IH knew, I suspect, that Rossi was setting up to claim that the Doral installation was a "Guarantee Performance Test," which, unless they made some major blunder that has not yet been alleged by Rossi, it wasn't.

I would still interpret "crush the tests" as "get maximum information from them."

If they wanted to stop that operation, they could have at any time. It would have involved confronting Rossi, though, and may have have become public if legal action were required.

They could have stopped paying Penon and Fabiani (and might have pulled Barry West out). Those were not an obligation.... but they still wanted maximum information about the Plant and what Rossi would do.

What they did was to demonstrate how totally unreliable and dangerous Rossi is as a business partner. This is probably irreversible damage. If he does invent something useful, he will need someone to front it for him.

He's never trusted anyone to that extent. Paranoia strikes deep.

Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

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He talked about wanting to "crush the tests," and they were, at this time, watching a reactor in Doral and being paid $30,000 per month for power allegedly from it.

......

Rossi must have took a big hit on this project. It appears there was no "customer" other than the one setup by Rossi and Johnson. So that means the $30,000 per month came from Rossi's pocket.
Not only that, but there was an actual power bill that had to be paid to the electric utility that the plant consumed. So Rossi had to pay the utility bill as well, while not being $30,000 per month,
would have still been sizeable.

No wonder he is riled! Missed out on $89 million, paid IH $360,000 for the "1mw consumption" that produced nothing in return and then had to pay the utility company for the power that was used by the eCat plant!
He did not come out on this deal. And now the counter suit may really hurt his pocket book! Ouch!

Quote from Zephir_AWT

IMO Krivit is connected with Piantelli aka investor of his Nichenergy company, and when Rossi borrowed/stoled his know-how via Focardi, Krivit got upset with it. His attitude is therefore a bit schizophrenic, as he pretends at public, that the E-Cat technology isn't actually working - whereas he's upset with exactly the opposite. I admit, this is my private theory in this matter only, but it has already some support. Judging by the Nichenergy site and the photos posted there it looks as if Piantelli and nichEnergy have gotten some serious funding from somewhere. It also looks as if they are working with somebody that speaks and writes really good English. One possibility is North Carolina investor and billionaire Tom Darden who is also bankrolling Andrea Rossi’s work. Darden has said that he plans to finance a large amount of LENR research through his company Industrial Heat.

The "Krivit investor in Nichenergy" idea is unlikely. The link given was just bloviation by Peter Gluck, no substance supporting Zephir's point, (though I did not follow Peter's links, as not shown as providing information on this point).

Funding of Piantelli by Industrial Heat (or IHHI) would not be surprising at all. Darden, however, isn't going to be editing the web site!

Quote from IH Fanboy

Bob wrote:

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You are either going to eat crow on this one or be spot on. Get ready to experience it or celebrate it, as the case may be.

And there would be the rent on the warehouse, etc.

Rossi considered this an expense, part of setting up a "GPT"to get $89 million or at least some other value, such as publicity. But that damn IH not only would not pay him, but would not let him release the results, the Penon report! So ... aha!

I am such a genius! Sue them!

Quote from IH Fanboy

You are either going to eat crow on this one or be spot on. Get ready to experience it or celebrate it, as the case may be.

Truthfully, I really hope that I get the opportunity to "eat crow"! I have nothing personally against Rossi and if he turns out to be an eccentric inventor that really has something, so much the better. It would be such a shame that so much unnecessary drama had to be in the eCat story though. It certainly did not / does not have to be that way.

So if my post turns out correct, I will truly be sad. Such a waste. If I am wrong, I will indeed be glad. I can honestly state that my "celebration" would come about by me being proven wrong on this! Unfortunately, I am not very optimistic about a happy outcome on this one.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Stephen Krivit says at his site "In order to remain an objective source of news and analysis, New Energy Times does not conduct its own scientific research,
does not invest in or maintain ownership in any of the companies or technologies it reports on, and does not try to acquire any intellectual property rights in the field".

Yet he's strongly biased against Rossi.

Zephir linked to http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/articles/NET1.html a page by Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize winner in physics. This has nothing to do with Rossi, but everything to do with Krivit. Krivit's goal became
Krivit.

You can see this in his stories. A story is often, "I asked So-and-so such and such, and they did not reply." Krivit's own activity becomes the story. I first saw this clearly when he went after Dardik, accusing Dardik of preventing him from visiting with Martin Fleischmann. An entire story about how Steve Krivit was not allowed to meet with Martin.

At the point where Brian wrote that, Krivit had a board for Energy Institute. When board members attempted to suggest he modify his behavior, he suggested they resign. He started out with at least one reputable scientist on his board. That went south quickly. He eventually ended up with yes-men. Then it got worse.

Here, he was attacking Josephson, a major physicist supporter of cold fusion. Yeah, it was originally over Russ George, not exactly a character of high reputation, Russ burned his own bridges. But ... Krivit decided that most of the cold fusion research establishment was involved in a conspiracy to promote "d-d fusion" and to suppress the "good theory," i.e,. Widom-Larsen theory. He had previously published critique of W-L theory. His revised site pointed to that, but cherry-picking a quote from it that made it seem an approval from Richard Garwin, which it very much wasn't. So Krivit was creating deceptive content.

Why? His story about it is plausible. He had believed the "fusion" theory because PhD's had told him. But now other PhDs were telling him something different. But instead of actually investigating that, and reporting on the process. he took a fixed position, and began attacking McKubre, Violante, and others.

At the same time, his income at NET was collapsing. then he got a large donation, probably $100,000, it was quite visible in the financial report. He had been making $90,000 per year, it went way down one year. Then it came back up the next, after that large donation. then he took NET private. Who has that kind of money?

How about Lewis Larsen? Notice that Krivit's disclaimer doesn't say that he isn't paid. He was previously paid by a nonprofit which at least had a theoretically supervising board, though it was obviously dysfunctional.

Krivit is reporting on LENR, but has alienated almost the entire research community. He's lost touch. I was at ICCF-18. He had a press badge waiting. He never showed up.

Current Science published 34 articles on LENR, in February, 2015, a major publishing event in the history of LENR. I could find no mention on NET.

In May, 2015, Woodford invested $50 million in cold fusion research though IH Holdings International, Ltd. No mention until he put a snippet in his Rossi history that was vague and mangled and showed he knew nothing but what Rossi had said about it, which was badly distorted.

He almost completely lost his connection with the community. He was co-editor with Marwan of the LENR Sourcebooks, 2008 and 2009. He co-wrote the review, with Marwan, in the Journal of Environmental Monitoring. But by the time of the reply, he wasn't collaborating with Marwan any more, and there was video of the ACS Conference (was it 2010 or 2011?) where you could practically feel the ice. From being on a panel facing the press the year before, he was in the room, no longer on stage, essentially badgering McKubre. Over something nobody would understand. I researched it. Krivit was nuts.

His shallow coverage of Rossi v. Darden, the first major cold fusion legal case in many years, shows that he did not become familiar with it, and he repeats many Rossi errors, as if they were fact, the most serious being the idea (which was easy to fall in to) that Industrial Heat is owned by Cherokee Investment Partners.

To him, the case is entirely about Rossi Fraud. In fact, that is a secondary issue in the case! Krivit is not a serious analyst. He has no coherent vision of the future of LENR. He nailed himself to a theory that is inconsistent with experimental evidence, most of which he doesn't understand.

He is not a scientist, his attempts at a scientific analysis need major editing, which, of course, doesn't happen, since he became his own editor. Once upon a time, he was a decent writer.

I am also not a scientist; however, I had a more serious grounding in basic physics (Feynman, Cal Tech, 1961-63), plus my writing is how I learn, and being able to write and be read by the major scientists in the field has been a fantastic experience. They often correct my errors. And I also write in fora where skeptics and pseudoskeptics ask questions and challenge what I write, and this also requires me to research, to confirm my sources, to study the implications, to seek to discover my own errors. It requires that I become familiar with the material.

Quote from Bob

So if my post turns out correct, I will truly be sad. Such a waste. If I am wrong, I will indeed be glad. I can honestly state that my "celebration" would come about by me being proven wrong on this! Unfortunately, I am not very optimistic about a happy outcome on this one.

I am, as to overall and eventual outcome. I don't know how Rossi will fare with that. I, too, would take it as amazing good news if, say, Rossi develops and is selling a working commercial product.

However, I also celebrate the fact -- it is already true -- that LENR research is getting major funding support, in places where it may accomplish a great deal.

Let me simplify this a bit since Abd's bloated and nauseatingly overdetailed prose is making me queasy: Krivit was correct about essentially every assertion he's made about Rossi. Krivit was the only early investigator or tester of Rossi who asked the right questions and who came away with the correct impression: the ecat did not work and Rossi was a con man with a lengthy history of criminality and nothing but failures. If Darden had used him for a consultant before giving Rossi money, he would saved himself countless hours of unnecessary work, tens of millions of dollars of investor money, and a huge loss of credibility.

The idea that Rossi threw out Krivit and called him a snake and a clown for putting covert instruments on Rossi's kludge is beyond inane and stupid. Rossi threw out Krivit because Krivit didn't fall for Rossi's bullpucky story -- just as Rossi threw out in mock anger anyone else who was not dumb enough to take his bait. That's simple history by now. And the lesson will be hammered in for good if there is a trial which I fervently hope there will be -- a nice, long costly and highly detailed one.

As for LENR research support, watch it reverse and wane when Rossi bites the dust for good and Brillouin turns out to be hot air (not LENR hot, just BS hot) along with Miley, Swartz, Celani and Nanospire. Ni-H work will be defunct as it probably should be, and unfortunately, Pd-D work which might possibly show at least a possibility (albeit small) of merit, will suffer as well. In the long term, Rossi, Defkalion and Darden will be a nightmare for the legitimate researchers in LENR.

Strangely, people like Abd think that insulting and denigrating Krivit helps Rossi but it doesn't. Rossi's (and Defkalion) critics have been right every step of the way and they still are. Nothing would help Rossi except proper independent proof that the ecats, hot cats, weird cats, Quark cats and all the other drivel claims work but they CLEARLY don't and such proof will never be forthcoming.

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People tell me Krivit is not entirely well and has been hospitalised more than once.

People tell me Krivit sells pink, invisible, flying unicorns. I am not quite sure I believe it though.

From Josephson's description of his interaction with Krivit, an email from Krivit:

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"I am aware that you have been collaborating with Jon Cartwright of Physics World. ... As I made clear to you in my last message, I am most certainly interested in a scoop, that is my job, there is no surprise about this. Because of your relationship with a competing journalist, it is inadvisable for me to discuss this matter further with you or to assist with your continued efforts to gain unpublished and unreleased information."

Was Krivit's "job" to have a "scoop"? I.e, to be the first to release information? That can be the job of a reporter for a news organization that wants market share, readership, where the sale of advertising is the goal, and serving public welfare exists as a goal, but is secondary.

However, Krivit was employed by a nonprofit, and New Energy Times was a means, not the goal, per se. Supposedly. In fact, Krivit's goal was Krivit and his standing as the go-to person for information and news about LENR. And, in that way, he saw other journalists as competitors. And a scientist involved with the field, who is "collaborating" with another journalist, the enemy!

Brian goes over the possibility of some legitimate reason for this "embargo." He does not find it plausible. Krivit's refusal to discuss the specific matter further was acceptable. People can do that, it's their right. However, the reason he gave, the relationship with another journalist, that speaks volumes.

In 2012, I attempted to reach out to Krivit. I was going to be in San Rafael, where his office is, for Thanksgiving, I have children who live there. I requested a meeting. I received this mail in response:

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If I recall, you had called me six months ago. [...] you reached out to me to apologize for your mean-spirited characterizations you had publicly directed toward me and my character.

I recall my reluctance to engage with you in any way at the time. I told you I would like to see if you abate your aggression to me over the course of six months before even considering communicating with you.

I do not watch Vortex anymore, so I do not know anything about your behavior there lately. What I can say is that I have not picked up any adverse public hostilities from you on my radar screen. So, thank you for your decency.

Now on to your request. I do not make arrangements to meet people associated with the field unless there is a specific purpose or objective. LENR is not a social endeavor for me. So if you have a specific purpose or objective, what is it please?

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My purpose had been to meet and see of communication and cooperation were possible. I think I'd said that. I was becoming well-known in the field, and well-connected. As part of my trip, I was going to SRI at Mckubre's invitation. I needed to leave for the trip, and running into what looked like a frozen wall, I did not invent some special purpose, I didn't respond then. I thought the attitude extremely strange and highly controlling. The problem with meeting for coffee at a time and place convenient to him, over about a week, would be?

So I went to SRI and there was, that day, a conference with researchers from around the world. There was much of interest I'd think. I wrote to him, discussing that, offering to share it, and some other things. His response:

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Sorry Abd....I"m super busy and don't have time to chat with you.

I replied:

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At 03:59 PM 11/29/2012, you wrote:

What I wrote stands. Thanks for telling me you are not interested, I will not waste my time further in any efforts to engage and cooperate.

You have, in fact, confirmed what many others told me about you. It's a pity.

His response:

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Sorry Abd....I"m super busy and don't have time to chat with you.

Notice the double quote in place of an apostrophe, the identical formatting in the ellipsis. This was not written, it was either edited in place or copyied and paste. I read this as a deliberate insult, as a blatant and clear rejection of communication, and I think I know why. Krivit knew he was visible to someone like me. In person, I would probably see right through him. I'm trained, and he knew that. I was a danger to his identity.

He chose that path, so I abandoned the intention to avoid comment on him, because he was doing damage. However, he did write me about four months later, in March, 2013:

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As I have heard, you've excreted another missive on the CMNS list.

I appreciate the attention you give to me and New Energy Times but I am concerned that you are on a course of infinite disappointment, so do take care.

I understand that you were banned on Wikipedia. And then banned on Vortex. Apparently the CMNS community is the only such community that tolerates you.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

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I responded:

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Mr. Krivit, you have represented yourself as a journalist, and as being bound by standards of ethics that seem remote from your actual practice.

If you are ever interested in returning to real scientific journalism, let us know. Meanwhile, you have been littering the internet with personal diatribes and false claims about reputable scientists, damaging the field with misleading information presented to the public, attempting to damage careers with ridiculous charges, and presenting yourself as the world's foremost authority on LENR, when you simply don't have the qualifications.

The one on a course of infinite disappointment is you, and it's obvious. You have been trashing 13 years of your own work.

But thanks for the thought.

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I have not heard from him since, nor have I written to him.

And he has written about me. Several months back, May 2016, a major LENR scientist unsubscribed from the CMNS list, because he had been quoted by Krivit. He had simply mentioned "the media," and people were worrying about what had happened. Krivit routinely posts material taken from the privarte CMNS list, he has done it many, many times. That list was intended as a place where researchers could share information and analysis without the glare of public scrutiny. Krivit has been damaging that. Because I mentioned on the list that I was going to ask this scientist what had happened, Krivit wrote to him, promptly:

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Dr. [redacted]

I should advise you that Abd ul-Rahman Lomax has a long history of talking "privately" with LENR scientists and then posting their messages or relaying their information to the Vortex list, the CMNS list and to a Yahoo group he created.

He was lying, attempting to interfere with my ability to communicate with LENR scientists, and, specifically, to suppress my ability to report on why this researcher had bailed from the list. It was specifically because of Krivit's violation of privacy.

That was libel. Should I sue? Problem is, for a lawsuit, I wasn't actually harmed. The researcher could see what was going on.

My guess is that someone set up an automatic forwarder from the list to Krivit. Lewis Larsen, who may be his sponsor, is a subscriber to the list.

New Energy Times, though, is relatively inactive.

Quote from Mary Yugo

Let me simplify this a bit since Abd's bloated and nauseatingly overdetailed prose is making me queasy:

It made Krivit queasy too. Consider the club that you belong to. Sane people, if not interested in what I write, don't read it. Crazy people (that is, obsessed even if apparently "normal") complain about how long it is, too detailed! Wall of text! Blah, blah. Get him out of here! He's making me queasy!

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Krivit was correct about essentially every assertion he's made about Rossi.

We have documented many errors.

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Krivit was the only early investigator or tester of Rossi who asked the right questions and who came away with the correct impression: the ecat did not work and Rossi was a con man with a lengthy history of criminality and nothing but failures.

That is a misrepresentation of his history. Rossi funded LENR research with his own money, originally. I think he got it from selling LTI. Rossi did run into a lot of trouble in Italy, but Krivit's oft-repeated claim that he was convicted of fraud appears to be untrue. A "lengthy history of criminality" does not jibe with his admission to the U.S., and, yes, they were aware of the Italian legal problems.

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If Darden had used him for a consultant before giving Rossi money, he would saved himself countless hours of unnecessary work, tens of millions of dollars of investor money, and a huge loss of credibility.

Industrial Heat appears to be doing fine as to credibility, except with a few Internet trolls who claim blah, blah, blah, providing no new information.

Consulting Krivit as a reliable source or consultant would, by that time, have been crazy. Rather, someone might read Krivit over and then consult with real experts. Should they have found out who Mary Yugo was and called him up? But what did he actually know beyond what he reported? I know people who met with Rossi before 2011, and who could see quite clearly what was going on, within limits. His avoidance of independent testing was blatantly obvious.

Nobody in the field that I know of, reputable, thought that Rossi could be trusted. That was what anyone who did due diligence would have known. Darden, then, I assume knew that, and so did Woodford.

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The idea that Rossi threw out Krivit and called him a snake and a clown for putting covert instruments on Rossi's kludge is beyond inane and stupid.

Probably. It's plausible, in one way, because Rossi did things like that (vide Dewey Weaver and his heat gun), and we know that Rossi pulled the plug on other demonstrations because someone was putting their own instruments on things, and Jed Rothwell was rejected because he asked if he could bring his own instruments, but ... there is no sign that Krivit did that.

Mary is probably right that Rossi called him a snake because he wrote a skeptical report -- or worse. Snake! Fraud! Snakesnake! Fraudfraud! Snakesnakesnake .... it goes like that, doesn't it?

Krivit did not understand the role of journalist, to him, it was about discovering and announcing Dirt! Scandal! Pedophile! etc....

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[...] In the long term, Rossi, Defkalion and Darden will be a nightmare for the legitimate researchers in LENR

Rossi is one thing, Defkalion another, and Darden another. As to Darden, he's providing funding and does not appear to be damaging research anywhere. The Rossi affair shows how generous he would be with an eccentric inventor. To a point! IH needs reputation in two areas: with researchers, and with "patient investors." IH has been quite successful with both. The lawsuit has made all that clear, and will open up even more if it continues.

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Strangely, people like Abd think that insulting and denigrating Krivit helps Rossi but it doesn't.

Huh? How? I don't think that at all. And why would I want to "help Rossi"? Okay, he's a human being. I do try to help people. I could probably help Rossi find a way to recover, if he asked. But he isn't likely to ask, is he?

You want strange: a man who is involved with a company that makes equipment used by cold fusion researchers, among others, who adopts a female internet persona to become a long-term fanatic critic of ccld fusion. Now that's strange, in my book.

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People tell me Krivit sells pink, invisible, flying unicorns. I am not quite sure I believe it though.

Krivit has long displayed traits that could, under some conditions, land him in a hospital. However, I have no information on that, and alleging hospitalization without evidence or necessity is unethical. Hey, I was hospitalized, for some weeks. About fifty years ago, since then I have not spent a night in a hospital. I was pushing many edges in my early twenties. Now, I pull others back from the edges. However, people's freedom is to be respected. If they want to go over the edge, and if they survive, they can ask me to throw a rope down, or not.

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Sane people, if not interested in what I write, don't read it.

Given that I loosely follow the forum, I rapidly browse what you write but the most part, I don't read it in detail. I can't see any reason to subject myself to that. I honestly can't think of a thing I have learned from your writing which I have browsed and the few complete posts I have read.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

@Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax As it's usual for extreme disputes, the truth is never black & white, the Widom-Larson theory has still some merit and Rossi is not saint, especially with respect to his patent wars against Piantelli. But Rossi's advantage is, he's oriented toward progress and he never bothered with his negativism too much. For Rossi Mr. Krivit is simply one of many "snakes" on his path, that's all - his interest is definitely somewhere else than in fight with opponents.

Until we know the mechanism for cold fusion, all theories have some merit, but.... theories that blatantly disregard the central known characteristics of the Fleischmann-Pons Heat effect, in ways that have been covered in many critiques, probably are more of a distraction than a benefit. Larsen himself is impossible as to discussing his theory. This is not the place to go over, though, why Widom-Larsen theory is not considered plausible by the vast majority of LENR researchers. However, one reason could stand out: the theory makes some readily verifiable predictions, striking ones. None of them have been verified experimentally. It is an ad-hoc theory. I.e, effect X is expected, but X is not seen. Therefore Y is happening, even though Y has never been reported, ever, and Y would have observable effects, not seen. But maybe nobody looked for Y effects. Okay, how would we do that. The explanation is that it wouldn't work, because Z. However, Z contradicts X. Try to point this out to Krivit or Larsen and you are quickly identified as some species of snake. Widom Larsen theory is mostly hot air. But, hey, it's NOT FUSION!
Except it is. Krivit plays with the definition of fusion, ignoring fusion as a result, and insisting on fusion being a specific process called d-d fusion.

For Rossi, the world is full of snakes. Isn't that obvious?

Quote from THHuxley

MY wrote:

That is a silly comment. as my father says: "In the long run we will all be dead".

Mary can be annoying. I think I'm going to turn that noise off. If Mary writes anything worth reading. someone quote it or tell me, okay!

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In the medium run:

LENR research will get some decent funding via IH.

Right. I am told that what I know of as the most important current project (heat/helium study) that it is "fully funded."

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If LENR is real that should be enough, spent wisely, to get cast-iron scientific evidence. With that further funding will come.

What I defined as most urgent was research that would address fundamental questions, starting with the reality of the effect and its apparently nuclear nature. If that is solidly established, it may take time, but research interest and funding will expand. Cold fusion is a mystery well worth exploration, starting with asking and answering that fundamental question about reality. That establishes a "real mystery." Storms thinks that we need an Explanation for progress. I disagree. Indeed, until there is enough evidence, explanations get in the way and cause confusion. We have a "basic explanation" for the FP Heat Effect, it's testable and easy to understand, as long as one doesn't demand details of mechanism. It converts deuterium to helium and heat. Period, except for tiny other effects sometimes seen.

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If LENR is not real, the money will show that hoped for evidence does not exist. That will not stop some people hoping for LENR, and at that point they will find it more difficult to get funding - true.

While this is possible, the research under way is actually only confirmation with increased precision. What would be a "bomb" would be the discovery of artifact that explains the existing work. It is very, very unlikely that the existing work will not be replicated, at least. What the more precise determination of the heat/helium ratio will show, I cannot predict. Probably it's going to tighten around the theoretical value, I have no reason to think not. However, this is what experiment is for: to find out. There are multiple groups working on this. Are they going to find convergent or divergent results? There is an anomaly that they might run into if they are not careful. If they include Pd-Ce cathodes, they might find heat without helium, with that being a mystery and confusing the issue. That's work that I hope will be done later, or as a follow-up study. I am hoping that they keep it simple.

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IH is in a position to use more money for LENR if there are positive results regardless of Rossi.

I think they basically gave up on Rossi quite some time ago, but maintained a "clean-up" operation that still allowed Rossi opportunity to make good on the Agreement. By that time, they were not spending serious money on Rossi.

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My only concern would be a big waste of time if results are not positive, but not fully understood, e.g. the MFMP "signal" coincident with a power outage and still as far as I know taken as positive evidence in spite of lack of any replication. That sort of data would not be helpful to LENR in the long run.

There are large numbers of anomalous results to be explained. Some will never be explained, probably. Those who try to explain everything end up confusing themselves.

Progress in LENR requires moving beyond anecdotal experience to replication, confirmation, verification, and, ultimately, control. This is something that is often not understood. Single experimental results are interesting in terms of suggesting what to explore. They rarely prove anything, because Stuff Happens. We get excited by these anecdotes, thinking that they prove something. Not quite.

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Until we know the mechanism for cold fusion, all theories have some merit...

Indeed. I am particularly fond of the unicorn theory.