Leonardo/Industrial Heat Court Case on “Complex Track” — to go to Jury Trial in September 2017

  • Wow damnrightman, your salt levels are on par with renzzie's


    Don't let it go unused, you should try to cure all that beef you've got with Rossi!


    My salt levels need to be that high. As long we do not have any person, who has met Rossi in real life, and posts in this forum, my arguments will remain "salty".


    I do not have any beef with Rossi.

  • I dislike the hate filled recriminations heaped upon Rossi as an act of jealous barbarism that despoils and discredits the people who do it more than the objects of the hate.


    What if the accusations are true? Has it occurred to you that if Rossi's test was as bad as I claim it was, I.H. is justified? It would not be "jealous barbarism" if Rossi pulled out instruments to wreck the test, and he is hiding his pretend customer site because there is only a 15 kW radiator in there. That would be justified anger.


    In effect, you are saying that I.H. and I are lying. I think you should make it clear that what you believe. That belief follows inescapably from your assertion. In fact, Rossi is the one who is lying. He is the one who does outrageous things. He stole $11 million, and you blame I.H. for getting upset with him!

  • To me it seems that at least Rossi was not interested to settle this outside courtroom, maybe IH either. Also latest documents were at least written that way that it looks like both parties were perfectly happy to stretch the schedule as far as possible. Of course gathering all possible information and specialists for their case, but 16 months! Why? I don't get it.


    Maybe that suits them best in any case. IH does not believe there will be any product to sell anyway, additional delay for possible 89m$ would be in better use meanwhile (and they can declare bankcrupty before Trial). Rossi can postpone possible payback of 'license' and additional charges to IH while planning plan B.


    They are conflicting views and some open questions remains.
    - Why IH would be happy to delay if they believe in license payback from Rossi instead of entitled for 89m$ payment? Why to hang in uncertainity that damages reputation and other business? Faster track would be just declare bankruptcy and take possible personal charges that follows. According to Dewey massive couter charges are waiting for Rossi. I think they would be any way bound to this case and cannot be on trial before this case is closed?
    - Why Rossi would be happy for delay if he believes on getting 50-80m$ or his license back. If he has something, other markets would be enough and he would buy time to develop his product and maintaining the lead from competition. Nobody cannot enter into US markets for next 18 months even he would have technology.


    All this does not make sense. Something is missing here. Do I really have to go into conspiracy theory side. If there is bigger picture, where it is mandatory to keep this technology out from disrupting US markets for a while and meanwhile court case would guarantee more wide awareness on what is coming in few years. Meanwhile let things proceed in other markets, because they cannot be controlled by IH tactics that become now revealed, or simply doesn't matter if other markets are used as test labs for one year.


    I agree nothing of these makes any sense. We are missing something, but what? Everybody complete <younameit> seems to be best fitting scenario :-(
    Please explain...

  • The judge has allocated a two week timeframe for the case. This means that the judge will trivialize all the technical food fight that the two sides are preparing and that many here are depending upon to decide the case. This very short case duration implies that the judge does not care about the placement of flow meters and thermocouples unless they were placed contrary to the agreed to protocol, per the contract. Science will take a backseat to the details of the legal and contractual agreements between the two parties. More than that, science and engineering and their experts won't even get on the bus.


    The issue will not be if the E-Cat works in absolute terms, the issue to be adjudged will be if the ERV has certified that the E-Cat works and meets the contractual agreements set for in the contracts and licence agreement. That issue won't take very long.

  • The issue will not be if the E-Cat works in absolute terms, the issue to be adjudged will be if the ERV has certified that the E-Cat works and meets the contractual agreements set for in the contracts and licence agreement. That issue won't take very long.



    Axil,


    I think you are conflicted between your desire to see punishment meted out against the "big guy" here, and the desire to have the merits of this technology revealed once and for all. Would you be satisfied if IH were to lose on the contractual merits, have to pay Rossi the $89 million, but it is revealed to us years later that Rossi had nothing? I get the impression by your many comments that you would. You just want to see IH get theirs. Whether or not the 1MW worked, or not, seems not to matter to you?


    I in contrast, simply want to know if the tech works, and if it does we can go from there. This is not David vs Goliath, or the big guy beating up on the little guy. All I care about is the truth.

  • @Argon


    My theory of "suicide menace" is coherent with Rossi delaying the execution.
    Note that when you are caught red handed, best reaction is to counter attack, not to defend, and this is coherent.
    The MTD of IH is coherent with desire to close the game quickly, even if it is tiny chance.


    Now we don't have all the data, but we have some. the new data/claims make past incoherent observations much more easy to understand today.


    I feel like when Luca found the DGT trick... Why not accepting the sad reality and focus on what we can do positively.
    There is a need of very solid evidences, probably not with LiAlH4+Ni+heat, but with older validated protocols, like Miles, Letts, McKubre, or why note Piantelli, Celani...
    Parkhomov/Songsheng line of research is uncertain but why not too... Be we have to be ready to cut the dead limb if it appears dead.


    As says Edmund Storms, theory is important as a quide to experimenters, because you can only design experiments, decide what to observe, interpret success and failure, from a theory framework.
    I follow EmDrive works, and without a theory a clear negative is hard to distinguish from an insufficiently precise measurement...


    We are back 5 years ago, but with big money ready to fund serious work. I mean serious!

  • Quote from axil: “I dislike the hate filled recriminations heaped upon Rossi as an act of jealous barbarism that despoils and discredits the people who do it more than the objects of the hate.”
    What if the accusations are true? Has it occurred to you…


    Jed wrote: "He [Rossi] stole $11 million, and you blame I.H. for getting upset with him!"


    Last I heard, Rossi is the one suing IH - not the other way around. As you should know from reading the license agreement, IH paid Rossi $1.5M for the 1 MW plant which was delivered, and an additional $10M (put in Escrow in case the validation test failed and/or the IP was not "validated") once the 24-hour validation test was carried out. This was in 2012 and it is now July 2016.


    Even though the 24-hour validation test was clearly successful at least as far as IH was concerned, otherwise they wouldn't have paid Rossi the $10M, if the IP was not properly transferred and they were never able to make a working reactor, is there some reason that IH did not sue Rossi over the past 4 years for the IP?


    Is it because they were bound by the contract deadlines, and were "snookered" on the validation test?


    And didn't mention this because they were hoping against hope that eventually they might get working IP, and were also embarrassed and/or didn't want to hurt the positive efforts in LENR with bad publicity?


    I agree that this is possible, even though it seems a little bit surprising given some of the comments of Dewey Weaver. Especially, the ones in which Dewey discussed suing Rossi for the IP.


    There's another problem regarding the IP. The license agreement reads as follows:


    "3.1 The total price for the grant of the License and the purchase of the plant is One Hundred Million Five Hundred Thousand Dollars ($100,500,000)."


    So this is in contrast to the claim that $10M is sufficient for all of the IP and the license agreement. Regarding the combined IP and license agreement it certainly does not make sense that if the technology works (and is worth billions) that it would be fair for IH to have access to it, along with rights for most of the world for only $10M. In fact, the claim has been made that if the technology works and the IP has been properly transferred then IH would have been eager to pay an additional $89M for something which is worth billions. There seems to be a contradiction here since a careful reading of the contract suggests to me that it is $10M for the IP only (if properly transferred and validated) but this does not include the exclusive licenses/territories. However, this does not make sense unless one assumes that the $10M only allows non-exclusive use of the non-European territories.


    So again one of the key questions is who wrote and/or modified the license agreement? If it was IH it seems very one-sided against Leonardo Corporation. If it was Rossi, then some might believe it was a very clever "bait" by a "fraud artist" to legal trap a greedy corporation which thinks that it can acquire the IP for only $10M along with the exclusive territories in all of the world except for Europe.


    Regarding whether or not Rossi's technology works, it would appear to still be an open question. (I know that you, Jed, will continue to focus on the failure of the one-year test, assuming that was the case, but as far as I'm concerned what's more important is whether or not Rossi's technology is real.) There are many reasons to think that it might be real - the testimony of Focardi, a large number of public and/or private tests in the past 5 years, including some positive ones, the 24-hour validation test for IH, the detection of a brief burst of radiation by Celani at the beginning of the Bologna demo in 2011, a rather large number of apparently successful replications using information from the patent and Lugano (Parkhomov and many others) involving Ni/LiAlH, claims by Mats Lewan about the ERV report, Rossi's recent claims about the QuarkX and that he is close to commercialization. There are also reasons to suspect that it might not work (failed tests such as the poorly conducted Lugano test), the claims of IH and (based on information supplied by IH) the claims of Jed Rothwell.


    In any case, as far as I'm concerned this is the most important question (e.g. whether or not Rossi's technology works) not some "internal" dispute between Rossi and IH. If Rossi can go ahead and manufacture working E-cats and/or QuarkX's within the next 6-12 months then this should answer any questions about the technology.

  • Quote

    The issue will not be if the E-Cat works in absolute terms, the issue to be adjudged will be if the ERV has certified that the E-Cat works and meets the contractual agreements set for in the contracts and licence agreement. That issue won't take very long.


    I don't know how long it will take but Rossi committed obvious and blatant fraud and that invalidates any contract based on what Rossi claimed. IH does not have to pay if IN FACT does not work. It doesn't matter what fantasy is woven by Penon and Rossi's "customer" (his own attorney, ROTFWL!).


    Quote

    You should recognize that you are just a bystander in the contest between Rossi and the people who want his IP, a witness with your nose pressed up upon the glass who is witnessing the great contest of the century. In this state of passive observation, we are powerless and must be patient. Rossi's machinations are directed toward funding his R&D and at the same time not letting his ideas out into the public. You feel vicariously, the frustration of those who have conspired to extract his technology. I must admit to studying Rossi in order to get inside his head to see what can be gleaned therein, but I have treated such an effort as a puzzle solving activity from which I have accumulated a great deal of insight into LENR and the confident assuredness that this insight provides. In my own heart, I know how Rossi's technology works but I do not yet understand or do I care to understand how to setup a reactor to breathe life into that technology. This LENR science is far to complicated for me to convey to others because it sounds to them as word salad. So I don't make and effort anymore. I have revealed my predictions about LENR in public and we will see how the future judges them.Rossi is a slippery SOB but only a person of his nefarious abilities could have gotten as far as he has without any help from the powers that be. As an engineer he has no equal and as is typical of such people, they are honest as the day is long in what they say about what they are doing in the work that they do. As I have grown in my understanding of his science, I can anticipate what he will say and that leads me to have confidence in his systems.I dislike the hate filled recriminations heaped upon Rossi as an act of jealous barbarism that despoils and discredits the people who do it more than the objects of the hate. This is a feature of my personality who has always had compassion for the underdog, who is repealed by hate and jealousy, who rails against the pack and the mob in sympathy for the lone and embattled victim.


    I don't want to waste time responding to such crap for the maybe half dozen people who still believe it. Suffice it to say that if Rossi really could make a megawatt fusion device with a COP of 50, he wouldn't be an underdog! He'd be a billionaire. As for everything else you say above, it's ALL wrong and it will be interesting to see what you have to say when Rossi is finally busted or simply disappears like Defkalion. IIRC, you wrote just as much word salad about how Defkalion reactors "worked" as you did about Rossi's. So what happened to them? Think some nefarious power killed them off? Why don't you ask that slimy liar Hadjichristos? He's still around and you can find him on LinkedIn.

  • Axil,


    I think you are conflicted between your desire to see punishment meted out against the "big guy" here, and the desire to have the merits of this technology revealed once and for all. Would you be satisfied if IH were to lose on the contractual merits, have to pay Rossi the $89 million, but it is revealed to us years later that Rossi had nothing? I get the impression by your many comments that you would. You just want to see IH get theirs. Whether or not the 1MW worked, or not, seems not to matter to you?


    I in contrast, simply want to know if the tech works, and if it does we can go from there. This is not David vs Goliath, or the big guy beating up on the little guy. All I care about is the truth.


    You learn the truth about LENR through replications of the tech and Rossi's tech has been replicated by many people. The replication and the word that I trust the most is the one done by me356. This tech will eventually lead to an open source technology and the system that both science and we all here will learn the most from. This is the tech that we can influence though our questions and our contributions. This is the tech were all the data that we want will be available for the asking.


    But there is a ill wind that is to befall us. That is the FUD campaign that is sure to come from all the interests that LENR will undercut. Is IH part of that campaign or is IH just incompetent to the detriment of LENR. IH could be well meaning but just stupid in the extreme. I would have controlled Rossi with an iron fist, managed him minute by minute, day by day. At the end of each day, the sun would not have set on those shipping containers unless I was sure that the reactor and the IP worked. Not a word to Rossi for an entire year, ridiculous. Sometime stupid is just as damaging as malicious intent. Sometimes it hard to distinguish between the two. But like malicious intent, stupid should never be protected or encouraged. No, stupid must be rooted out and discouraged.


    By the way, I beleive that Rossi wants triple damages or in money terms 267 $million.

  • Jed wrote: "He [Rossi] stole $11 million, and you blame I.H. for getting upset with him!" Last I heard, Rossi is the one suing IH - not the other way around.


    Jed lives in a topsy turvy world where reality is discombobulated.

  • There is a need of very solid evidences, probably not with LiAlH4+Ni+heat, but with older validated protocols, like Miles, Letts, McKubre, or why note Piantelli, Celani...


    I would follow the Mizuno protocoll. Not pure Ni but much lower Temperature, which allows for good control/measurments. Now also Parkhomov confirmed that the reaction starts after a sudden presure release, as we also saw in mfp. Reason: The lattice is kind of sweating hydrogen which forms an activ surface film.

  • NONSENSE! As usual, you confuse CLAIMS for FACTS. You're completely incorrigible.


    I think it will be an accumulation of claims that will matter in the end. When you have a few dozen replicators in various parts of the world replicating me356 type experiments, the claims will eventually start to look like, and will indeed become facts--at least for those conducting the replications. At the end of the day, we all rely on the claims of others to establish our version of base reality. We must also experience events as well to bolster the individual credence in that base. Having one before our very eyes would obviously be the final confirmation that many of us will eventually need. But this need not be a step function. It is more of a spectrum.

  • Mary


    I don't know how long it will take but Rossi committed obvious and blatant fraud and that invalidates any contract based on what Rossi claimed. IH does not have to pay if IN FACT does not work. It doesn't matter what fantasy is woven by Penon and Rossi's "customer" (his own attorney, ROTFWL!).


    Mary


    I agree. from a 'patent perspective' if the invention 'does not work' and 'is not useful' then the patent will be deemed 'illusory' and will fail, and if already 'issued' will, or should be withdrawn.


    From a 'contract perspective' if the contact is based on something that is not 'real' i.e. is 'illusory' then the contract is baseless. along with the licences and IP. but where does that leave 'Darden et al' for a start, at the mercy of their investors having failed in their 'due diligence'. But of course they may conveniently go 'bankrupt' by then, not so the other defendants, so it was interesting one of Darden et al's early requests was to separate the defendants to face charges independently, but this has not happened yet.


    Of course Rossi will be open to corruption and fraud charges. So everyone looses.


    Best regards
    Frank

  • Jed wrote: "He [Rossi] stole $11 million, and you blame I.H. for getting upset with him!"


    Last I heard, Rossi is the one suing IH - not the other way around.


    True, but they are upset with him.


    Regarding whether or not Rossi's technology works, it would appear to still be an open question. (I know that you, Jed, will continue to focus on the failure of the one-year test,


    On the contrary, I have frequently said there is some evidence the some of Rossi's reactors may have worked.


    Also, the failure was not just this one year test. Multiple "reactors" failed according to the motion to dismiss. I know nothing about these other reactors but that is what I.H. said.

  • So that I have this right Axil, I take your comments to mean that....even were the 1MW test proved to be a bust, that you still wish, hope that IH has to pay merely because the contract says: "if the ERV determines the test a success, IH pays the remaining $89 million"?


    Sadly, that is the way I read it. Not that it matters, because as MY and Frank mention, the contract would then be invalidated. Still though, it shows your passions lie more with punishing big corporations for some perceived wrongdoing, than with whether or not the Ecat works.

  • I think you are conflicted between your desire to see punishment meted out against the "big guy"


    For you


    Cherokee/IH are no "big guy", that would be Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Halliburton... names that will be curses in some future, I hope


    IH could be doing those "big guys' " bidding, but that seems unlikely. The replications around the world are reaching critical mass (ideas, methods, "luck", have a snowball effect in an emerging field; collective unconscious and all that good stuff), so even those devils must have understood that they have to let it go.
    Do note that it's absurd to try to "stick it" to a conglomerate that deals in hundreds of billion dollars, and million dead. Just like Homer Simpson and his cursed donut, you cannot out-trick Satan.


    Most probable hypothesis, the one that seems to reach a consensus here btw, even Jed leans towards it, is that Rossi is a temperamental paranoid inventor, and that drama ensued between him and IH, because he's a rogue tinkerer who enjoys pissing people off, especially if they pride themselves on academic proceedings (this is what I gathered from the emotional meltdowns here and there)


    Of course this does not mean unsavory entities have not jumped on the occasion to slow down LENR progress



    PS: did you like my Baneposting?

  • So that I have this right Axil, I take your comments to mean that....even were the 1MW test proved to be a bust, that you still wish, hope that IH has to pay merely because the contract says: "if the ERV determines the test a success, IH pays the remaining $89 million"?


    Sadly, that is the way I read it. Not that it matters, because as MY and Frank mention, the contract would then be invalidated. Still though, it shows your passions lie more with punishing big corporations for some perceived wrongdoing, than with whether or not the Ecat works.




    It is not what I like or don't like' it is not what is fair or unfair, it is how the case will be decided under the current indeterminate status of LENR in society. LENR is so weird, complicated, and incomprehensible, the court will fall back on what it knows, the contract and the laws that apply to contracts. At this juncture, the court cannot tell you is the E-Cat works. If you think the court can, you are delusional.


    If Rossi can get a LENR reactor on the market over the next 442 days, that validation of the technology will make all the difference.


    The term "whether or not the Ecat works" is an oversimplification of a complex situation. One issue that is concerning about the E-Cat's status for commercial use is the reason why Rossi had to live inside those shipping containers for a year. Can the E-Cat run unattended with an ignorant immigrant operator passing by it one a shift on his way to the rest room? How reliable will it be, how available will it be, what is the mean time between failure, what is the time required to repair?


    "whether or not the Ecat works" in a commercial setting is a very complicated issue that was not determined by that test, The test just was intended to check over the long term COP => 4 and steam production, that is it.


    Rossi used the test to check out other things that interested him in his road to commercialization but had no bearing on payment for assured performance. Your simplified view of what works is affecting your understanding of my motives. I am just interested in the truth and am trying to get to it by using clear thinking and logic.