Judge Orders Jury Trial in Rossi et al v. Darden et al Starting June 26, 2017

Quote from axil

Your entire argument will fall apart when the "customer" is revealed during the trial and he testifies that his manufacturing process requires a lot of heat and he got that heat from the E-Cat. Then what? How will you look? How will your reputation suffer? It is better to prove the fraud now before the trial. IH should help. Dewey will fund it.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when the jury talks about the fake customer. I'm sure it will start something like this..."Okay so let me get this straight, so the company that was used for Rossi's test was created and is headed up by Rossi's lawyer but is supposedly a shell company for some other company that in the UK that makes metal sponges?" Priceless..

Quote from axil

Seeing is believing.

Your naivety about how a ~50 could be easily fabricated via numerous different tricks including those related to the flow meter, by a magician is astounding!

Quote from JedRothwell

I doubt Rossi's lawyer will be willing to go through that charade, or go to jail, so I do not think this will happen.

Again, you are simply assuming that there is no parent company. I'm not sure that is a safe assumption given the documents that have already been filed with the court.

Quote from stephenrenzz

I would love to be a fly on the wall when the jury talks about the fake customer. I'm sure it will start something like this..."Okay so let me get this straight, so the company that was used for Rossi's test was created and is headed up by Rossi's lawyer but is supposedly a shell company for some other company that in the UK that makes metal sponges?" Priceless..

On page 25 of the licence agreement, the customer was recognized by IH as a company out of the UK. If they are a fraud, then IH was a party to that action.

Quote from axil

On page 25 of the licence agreement, the customer was recognized by IH as a company out of the UK. If they are a fraud, then IH was a party to that action.

Or they are just another in the long line of those fooled by a frXXXster...a talented one at that.

Quote from stephenrenzz

Or they are just another in the long line of those fooled by a frXXXster...a talented one at that.

That is possible, IH can be a fraud too. They are more likely at fraud than Rossi, and got more money (50 to 250 or more millions)

Quote from stephenrenzz

The vast majority of technologies are proven WELL before massive production . . .

This is the 21st century. No one is allowed to mass produce anything without first proving that it works. Also that it is safe, that it does not pollute the environment, that it meets all relevant standards set by Underwriter's Laboratory (U.L.), and federal and state product safety regulatory agencies, that in the event of a fire, fire department personnel will not be put at risk of electrocution or toxic smoke while putting out the flames . . . etc., etc. The fire-extinguishing problem was a big issue for the Prius and for electric cars. This regulatory burden is one of the reasons it cost $1 billion or more to develop the Prius. This is the price we pay for consumer safety. It is worth the price because safety is orders of magnitude better than it was in 1870 or 1900. All of our machinery, even pencil sharpeners, are more expensive than they used to be, because they are tested and proven safe. We pay more for goods, but less for hospital bills and death.

There is absolutely no way Rossi is going to convince the world his gadgets are real by selling them in Walmart. Walmart would not touch that product with a 100-meter poll. They never sell anything which is has not been certified by U.L. Before U.L. approves a product, you have to give them full performance specs and blueprints, give them working prototypes, and a list of vendors for every single nut an bolt. I am not exaggerating. They do not allow any secrets. Walmart will also never sell a product that has not been tested by regulators. Including destructive testing, such as automobiles are subjected to. The equivalent of hundreds of crash tests, costing hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

No company or vendor in any first world country would run the risk of selling an untested, unproven nuclear fusion reactor. If anything went wrong they would be destroyed by litigation. Sued out of existence. Cold fusion reactors will either go through the usual steps of approval from government and private industrial agencies such as U.L., or they will never see the light of day.

Quote from axil

That is possible, IH can be a fraud too. They are more likely at fraud than Rossi, and got more money (50 to 250 or more millions)

As far as we know, Rossi is the only one who has profited from this. You have absolutely no proof 50-250 million have changed hands due to Rossi...and please do not post that silly quote about how IH praised Rossi years ago before they realized they were being fooled. FACT: Rossi pocketed millions. WEAK SPECULATION: 50-250 million was pocketed because of Rossi.

Quote from stephenrenzz

Or they are just another in the long line of those fooled by a frXXXster...a talented one at that.

You keep calling Rossi a fraudster. I disagree with your assessment. But I do agree that we are beyond simple measurement error explanations. It is either fraud or not. I believe the "not" line of thinking is a safer stance to take on public forums with dated posts and a history that is likely to remain for a long while.

Quote from stephenrenzz

As far as we know, Rossi is the only one who has profited from this. You have absolutely no proof 50-250 million have changed hands due to Rossi...and please do not post that silly quote about how IH praised Rossi years ago before they realized they were being fooled. FACT: Rossi pocketed millions. WEAK SPECULATION: 50-250 million was pocketed because of Rossi.

IH fraud will probably be a result of the trial.

Quote from JedRothwell

No company or vendor in any first world country would run the risk of selling an untested, unproven nuclear fusion reactor. If anything went wrong they would be destroyed by litigation. Sued out of existence. Cold fusion reactors will either go through the usual steps of approval from government and private industrial agencies such U.L., or they will never see the light of day.

You make some good points. That is why I believe China and other developing countries will be the first adopters of LENR+ on an industrial scale. Consumers products are a long way off, probably a decade or more. But as soon as the east takes up adoption on a wide scale, the west will have to respond in kind or risk losing its status and place in the world.

Quote from Keieueue

But you always say that the errors are blatant and one can understand at first look how the experiment is doctored?

Yes, it is obvious how the test was doctored. It is obvious that Rossi's results are meaningless noise. But getting the actual right answer and sorting out which of his instruments contributed how much to the chaos is harder. His error margins are gigantic. Reducing them to an acceptable level means doing the whole test over from scratch, and then comparing the real results to Rossi's fantasy version.

Seeing that an answer is wrong is easier than finding the right answer. For example, you can tell there is not 1 MW of heat because there is no measurable heat coming from the pretend customer site. But to determine how much heat is being delivered to the customer site would take much more work, and you would need access to the site. You can't just go up on the roof or use an IR camera. In the fake customer site you could determine whether there is 15 kW being delivered with 5 kW of waste heat on Rossi's side, or you might find it is 17 kW with 3 kW on Rossi's side. It is already clear there is no excess heat, but breaking it down to show what is going where, or how much each instrument contributed to the illusion is more work.

Quote from JedRothwell

This is the 21st century. No one is allowed to mass produce anything without first proving that it works. Also that it is safe, that it does not pollute the environment, that it meets all relevant standards set by Underwriter's Laboratory (U.L.), and federal and state product safety regulatory agencies, that in the event of a fire, fire department personnel will not be put at risk of electrocution or toxic smoke while putting out the flames . . . etc., etc. The fire-extinguishing problem was a big issue for the Prius and for electric cars. This regulatory burden is one of the reasons it cost $1 billion or more to develop the Prius. This is the price we pay for consumer safety. It is worth the price because safety is orders of magnitude better than it was in 1870 or 1900. All of our machinery, even pencil sharpeners, are more expensive than they used to be, because they are tested and proven safe. We pay more for goods, but less for hospital bills and death.

There is absolutely no way Rossi is going to convince the world his gadgets are real by selling them in Walmart. Walmart would not touch that product with a 100-meter poll. They never sell anything which is has not been certified by U.L. Before U.L. approves a product, you have to give them full performance specs and blueprints, give them working prototypes, and a list of vendors for every single nut an bolt. I am not exaggerating. They do not allow any secrets. Walmart will also never sell a product that has not been tested by regulators. Including destructive testing, such as automobiles are subjected to. The equivalent of hundreds of crash tests, costing hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

No company or vendor in any first world country would run the risk of selling an untested, unproven nuclear fusion reactor. If anything went wrong they would be destroyed by litigation. Sued out of existence. Cold fusion reactors will either go through the usual steps of approval from government and private industrial agencies such U.L., or they will never see the light of day.

Thank you for elaborating my point with much detail! It really does blow my mind that intelligent minds could possibly ignore points such as this. It would be one thing if there were one or two red flags for Rossi and his magical effect...but this is just one point of so many that makes him look absurd.

Rossi is acting like a little child pretending he has a magical fairy in a shoebox. When the other kids ask to see proof of his magical fairy, he says he can't show it because other children will tell lies about the fairy and convince people it is not real, and they may steal it! To pacify them, he then shows the wing of a fly and says "just wait until I start breeding these fairies, then and only then will I show you the magic!" Years go by and he still will not show the other children the fairy, but shows them the leg of an ant and says "here is proof of the fairy, but do not fear, we have magnificent breeding rooms for millions of fairies to bring magic to all homes!" This goes on and on until all the children have grown up and have died. Sadly those children did not have a court of law to help them understand that fairies do not exist....

Quote from IH Fanboy

You keep calling Rossi a fraudster. I disagree with your assessment. But I do agree that we are beyond simple measurement error explanations. It is either fraud or not. I believe the "not" line of thinking is a safer stance to take on public forums with dated posts and a history that is likely to remain for a long while.

I did not call anyone a fraudster...I posed it as a possibility against Axils proposal that IH was fraudulent.

Axil: "On page 25 of the licence agreement, the customer was recognized by IH as a company out of the UK. If they are a fraud, then IH was a party to that action."
Axil: "IH fraud will probably be a result of the trial."

There is nothing illegal about speculating fraud in the case...you do not understand defamation laws.

When will this mind blowing LENR (low energy nonsense reporting...) thread stop?

Jed, you stated the following:

1) "But to determine how much heat is being delivered to the customer site would take much more work, and you would need access to the site."

2) "It is already clear there is no excess heat . . ."

You might take into consideration that these are mutually exclusive. Everything you state about the customer site is speculative. But yet, you form these solid conclusions while admitting that access would be needed to make such conclusions. You should think carefully about what I'm saying. We all have blind spots. This might be one of yours.

Quote from IH Fanboy

You might take into consideration that these are mutually exclusive. Everything you state about the customer site is speculative.

No, they are not mutually exclusive. You fail to understand what I mean.

What I say is not a bit speculative. However, the measurements are inexact. 1 MW is absolutely out of the question. Even 100 kW is precluded. Based on Rossi's data, it is most likely there is no heat. Additional tests by I.H. confirmed this.

The exact heat release and the distribution of heat between Rossi's room and the pretend customer site probably cannot be determined without additional work, and access to the site. It is not necessary to know precisely how many kilowatts was delivered to each location to determine there is no excess heat.

Quote from IH Fanboy

That is why I believe China and other developing countries will be the first adopters of LENR+ on an industrial scale.

China does not allow industrial production without extensive oversight and testing. Their automobiles and other high tech items meet every industrial standard of the U.S. and Japan, including pollution standards. China does have a problem with corruption. Officials are paid off to look the other way and ignore violations of the safety regulations. This is what caused the explosions in Tianjin.

Other developing countries probably will not have the high-tech infrastructure or know-how to make cold fusion devices. Every indication is that cold fusion devices will be about as difficult to manufacture as Nicad batteries or fuel cells, which they resemble somewhat. Most third world countries cannot make these things, or if they do make them, they use fabrication equipment from China, Japan, the E.U. or the U.S. So these countries will not be able to manufacture anything until the first world industrial companies make the fabrication equipment, and this equipment and its output must meet all industrial standards. You cannot make dangerous machines in the U.S. or Japan and then sell them to the Third World. That's against the laws of all first world countries, as it should be.

Quote from IH Fanboy

But yet you have already taken a firm position that the COP is 1, but in any case, no more than 3 or 4?

As I have said several times, based on Rossi's data alone, 1 MW is preposterous, but I cannot rule out a COP of 3 or 4. It is unlikely. The problem is, the error margins are gigantic. For example, it is obvious the flowmeter has to be giving the wrong answer. Knowing only the type of flowmeter and configuration, I am sure it is wrong. But I can only make a very rough estimate of how wrong it might be. Whether it is off by a factor of 5 or 10 (or possibly more) I cannot say.

That's based on a sample of Rossi's data alone -- which is all I have. A person on site could easily make a more accurate estimate. I have heard that I.H. experts were able to do that. They have much more information than I do. I have no data them at all, but I know generally speaking what sort of tests they performed.

Quote from axil

That is why the non expert needs a simple demo to cut through the complexity.

I do not see any need for non-experts to understand this, but in any case, any licensed HVAC engineer can measure the input and output of a boiler, with high confidence. They do this as part of the safety and certifications for boilers. All boilers over 117 kW have to be tested periodically in Florida. This procedure is done thousands of times a day nationwide. There is no question it works. If it did not, we would still have as many boiler explosions as there were in 1880, before the ASME was formed to develop boiler safety standards, and the government starting instituting regulations. (The ASME was founded specifically for this purpose.)

Suppose you hired three different HVAC engineers to come and measure the output of the Rossi gadget, on different days, independently. Suppose they all agreed it was producing far more output heat than input electricity. You could bet your life that result is correct. You do, in fact, bet your life on that, every time you walk past a boiler room. You bet your life on similar industrial measurements every time you fly on an airplane or drive a car. It is a safe bet. People are seldom killed by equipment failures these days.

The methods Rossi & Penon used to measure the heat balance do not meet code. No HVAC engineer will testify they work. The choice of instruments and configuration were preposterous, and the data is meaningless. But it could easily be done right, by a licensed professional.