JM Chemical Products is the Key Witness in the Rossi vs. Industrial Heat Case

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So my point is, one side is arguing that it is clearly evident that Rossi is telling the truth and there facts to support it. Another side is stating it is all BS. We have almost no factual basis for either claim. Only circumstantial evidence. I do not know that Rossi is telling the truth. The evidence is clearly lacking either way! (I do not have Jed's data about thermal imaging etc.)

This is where Rossi's past and past history as well as the development of the ecat saga can help you. What part of Rossi-says on JONP came true vs what part was empty claims? What did he ever accomplish except failures and scams like Petroldragon and thermoelectric devices? Where did he get his PhD again (Kensington University)? Robotized factories? Dozens of orders for the megawatt plants? Nothing but secret customers? Who is Domenico Fioravanti really?

Quote from Mary Yugo

This is where Rossi's past and past history as well as the development of the ecat saga can help you. What part of Rossi-says on JONP came true vs what part was empty claims? What did he ever accomplish except failures and scams like Petroldragon and thermoelectric devices? Where did he get his PhD again (Kensington University)? Robotized factories? Dozens of orders for the megawatt plants? Nothing but secret customers? Who is Domenico Fioravanti really?

I too put a lot of consideration into history and I do not apologize for it! We can learn from history and are foolish if we refuse to examine the past to see how it applies today!
Rossi's past is what has caused me to severely start doubting him. Long term, repeating behavior.

With that said, I must also acknowledge that Edison failed on making a commercial light bulb many, many times before success. His words are :
“I have not failed 10,000 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 10,000 ways will not work." He had several inventions that did not succeed. (Mechanical pen for example, but later was re-invented for tattoos) He had inventions that took many iterations to succeed such as the light bulb. If I were alive back then, I might question him as well, after all, he did publicly electrocute an elephant just to try to destroy the "snakes", er "clowns", er I mean competition! (Just bit of humor people! )

So I have to temper history with that thought. Rossi's past does not build confidence, in contrast it gives much suspicion. However, it does not prove he has nothing. Now if I were investing money, this historical and current evidence, although circumstantial, would certainly prohibit me from laying out one dollar at this time. However, the odd thing is, wining the powerball is said to be 1 in 292 million!!! But I still by a ticket once in a while! Go figure!

The difference, Bob, is that Edison, before he actually made a working light bulb, did not claim that he had, that he had sold them, and that he had orders for more from satisfied customers (unnamed customers). The issue here is Rossi's consistent lying as well as his consistent failures.

Of course nothing we know yet proves Rossi has nothing. To do that, you need unfettered access to his ecat. And that, he has always refused to give, even though it would present no danger to his IP if done as a black box.

s for investing in the ecat, IH's giant festering mistake was in doing so without hiring the best, truly competent and truly independent talent to test the devices first. The $10M they appear to have lost and the cost of the current lawsuit are a stupidity, negligence and incompetence tax. At least they seemed to have learned their lesson about Rossi by now. But perhaps they still trust Brillouin and that is probably a second large error in judgement.

Quote from Mary Yugo

The difference, Bob, is that Edison, before he actually made a working light bulb, did not claim that he had, that he had sold them, and that he had orders for more from satisfied customers (unnamed customers). The issue here is Rossi's consistent lying as well as his consistent failures.

Let's put it this way. The record shows that a naive reading of what "Rossi says" commonly creates major gaps with what is later seen. Rossi, however, often creates plausible deniability, and also indulges in, let's call it optimism. "Production has begun" might mean "we are working on it."

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Of course nothing we know yet proves Rossi has nothing. To do that, you need unfettered access to his ecat. And that, he has always refused to give, even though it would present no danger to his IP if done as a black box.

This is well-known about Rossi. The stories go back to well before 2011. Whenever someone got too nosy at a demonstration, that was the end of that.

What this shows is that he did not want independent confirmation, that's totally clear. The standing excuse on Planet Rossi was that he wanted to keep competitors confused. If he had a clear independent confirmation, then competition would be rushing to figure out how he did it. As long as he could create some appearance, enough to attract attention, but while looking like a con artist, he could get what he wanted with less risk of competition. Planet Rossi swallows this, and it is a plausible explanation, but ... this also means that Rossi does not give a fig about the energy future of humanity, he wants to be the winner, even if it delays this for years, and the lost opportunity cost to humanity could be on the order of a trillion dollars per year of postponement of practical application of LENR. Rossi is not a scientist.

And his activity was causing damage to the science. Yes, it was attracting more attention to LENR. However, it was also having a negative impact on the funding of the real scientific research. Why fund researchers who might be happy with watts when Rossi is reporting kilowatts? In order to understand what Industrial Heat did, it is essential to understand this background.

[quote[[A]s for investing in the ecat, IH's giant festering mistake was in doing so without hiring the best, truly competent and truly independent talent to test the devices first.[/quote]
Do you realize, Mary, that you are telling a contradictory story? You just explained why what you suggest they should have done was impossible. They knew the situation, I'm sure. Rossi was not their first investment in LENR.

There was one way to find out, short of industrial espionage. They used it. They bought the IP and made Rossi a partner. They made the devices. That gave them the ability to test them independently, using that "truly competent and truly independent talent."

So now they knew, or at least they knew much better (because Rossi, paranoid, may not have given them the true IP).

They knew exactly what they were doing, they knew the risk was high that Rossi would not perform. The money was, in fact, well spent, and that is something that, with your knee-jerk judgment of "frauds and scammers" you can't see, your moral outrage blinds you to reality. They work in the real world, and are highly successful at it. The Rossi juggernaut has been stopped dead in its tracks, unable to move forward unless it performs on the Agreement. Or somehow manages to gain, in spite of what is now obvious, enough investment to take a product to market, the declared strategy. That would take, probably, hundreds of millions of dollars. It is extremely unlikely that anyone with that kind of money to invest will now take the risk. What IH did was very, very unusual.

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The $10M they appear to have lost and the cost of the current lawsuit are a stupidity, negligence and incompetence tax. At least they seemed to have learned their lesson about Rossi by now.

You are not their schoolmarm, Mary. They found what they were seeking, and it worked, they got what they paid for. They got two things: a demonstration that Rossi would not deliver even when he agreed and was paid, and a License that protects them against the small chance that he actually develops something. This drives Planet Rossi crazy. The snakes! They wanted to control him! No, they made an Agreement with him, on his terms, and then held him to it. He wants to hold them to one clause in the Agreement, but, so far, has neglected, in his claims, the core: IP transfer, and the right to use that IP as they saw fit, in their territory. He is complaining in his lawsuit about things that they had the full contractual right to do, or that follow from the Agreement and a natural implementation of it.

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But perhaps they still trust Brillouin and that is probably a second large error in judgement.

The basis for that is?

It does not appear that IH is a major investor in Brillouin. I met Godes in 2012 at SRI, when had an SRI badge and was setting up to do testing there. I'm not impressed by Godes' theory, but experiment rules. There are some results, unconfirmed as to anything published. Godes has mildly promoted his work. This is not necessarily the major work that Industrial Heat is supporting.

Mary completely does not understand the scientific approach. The goal is not "success," i.e., Big Heat. The goal is learning about reality. If what I can infer from what I've heard is correct, we will be seeing publications in journals, standard science, from at least some of what Industrial Heat is supporting. Properly designed research produces valuable results, almost all the time. They might indicate that some approach fails. That is a result and it can be valuable!

Back to Edison, the story is that he did not fail a thousand times before he succeeded. Rather, he discovered and learned a thousand ways that did not work or that were inadequate for his goal. Those were not "failure," they were steps to success.

From what I can see, Industrial Heat succeeded spectacularly. Their $11.5 million investment in Rossi IP established them as a serious player. That is what Woodford recognized and why Woodord elected to work with them.

Mary, you have this story that people who have access to large sums and who choose to invest them in risky possibilities are "stupid." Stupid all the way to the bank!

Quote from JedRothwell

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
Jed, if I am correct, you could not testify in court that you have Rossi's data, unless Rossi personally gave it to you, and then you could testify to that.

I could not testify in court in this case because I am not an expert witness. But if I were in court as an ordinary witness, and a lawyer asked me whether I am sure this is Rossi's data I would say "yes, I am sure." Being sure does not preclude the possibility of being wrong.

A lawyer would not be allowed to ask you that. What you could testify to is how you obtained the data, what it is that leads you to conclude that it is Rossi data, as to matters within your personal knowledge, but the conclusion is not up to you, unless you are "expert" on the question, which you would probably not be.

Normally, this would not become an issue. I can imagine scenarios where it might. Suppose Rossi filed an additional claim against you, claiming you libeled him by presenting false data. Your testimony as to how you obtained the data would become important! I don't expect this at all.

@Abd The obvious reason that in 5 years of pretending to want to sell ecats, Rossi has not sold a single one outside IH, and has never allowed proper testing is not that he doesn't want you to know it works. It's that he doesn't want people to realize it DOESN'T work.

Quote from Wyttenbach

Wyttenbach has found property data on the business condo. This is Unit 6 in that building. The addresses are off of 46th Street, even though the front doors face 79th Avenue. It appears that a prior tenant was Ledakon, and there is a photo of that building in a listing "for rent," which confused many: http://warehousespaces.com/war…ited-States/FL/Doral/2082 5925 square feet., $6172 per month. The entry way is for two suites, #6 is on the left. In that photo, the Ledakon sign is prominent. It seems to me that it had been painted over in what can be seen in Google street view.

This is the owner of that parcel, apparently: https://www.floridareg.com/com…4000049567/luna-y-sol-llc . From the date the LLC was formed, and from the date the condo was last transferred, there is room for a very mild suspicion that the owner is connected with Johnson. I wouldn't bet on it, at all, but this is something that a private detective would follow up on, tossing the information in the hopper.

(The owner LLC was formed and the property purchased at about the time that JM Chemical Products, Inc., was set up. However, even if Johnson were connected, so what? It's just a building and he is a real estate attorney. If he needed a space and had a client with a space to rent (as did exist at one time, not really a problem as long as nobody was cheated. it is odd that Rossi did not recognize the "for rent" claims and nail this, instead he just denied it was for rent, as far as I can see. Maybe it didn't occur to him. And I don't see that anyone put this together. But there is a lot of chatter here and there on this, maybe I missed something.)

Quote from Mary Yugo

@Abd The obvious reason that in 5 years of pretending to want to sell ecats, Rossi has not sold a single one outside IH, and has never allowed proper testing is not that he doesn't want you to know it works. It's that he doesn't want people to realize it DOESN'T work.

No, Mary, you consistently don't get the difference between a possible reason and the reason. That is an obvious possibility, it was on the table in the LENR community since 2011 and maybe before.

You seem to imagine that nobody else can think of the obvious possibility. But I've been saying again and again that my default understanding -- preponderance of the evidence -- is that Rossi has nothing, it is all fraud and/or fantasy. However, what are the probabilities? There is a lot at stake, a trillion dollars per year is my estimate. If someone is looking to put a maybe a billion dollars into LENR research, how much would a hedge against a Rossi Surprise be worth? If there is a 1% chance of Rossi being Real, it could be worth 1% of a billion dollars, that is $10 million, roughly what they put in. I'd probably, back then, have placed the odds a bit higher than 1%, being fully aware of all the facts and impressions you have pointed to, and more.

As it is now, Industrial Heat has the hedge. Rossi's attempt to cancel the license is legal fluff. He has no right to do that, even if they do owe him $89 million.

What is that License worth now? I would now place the probability of Rossi having a real technology at well below 1%. But ... they already paid for the license and are not likely to get the money back. And maybe -- in fact, certainly -- they have information I don't have.

Mary, I'm afraid, you are just not that smart. You could demonstrate I'm incorrect about that by showing some depth, a smidgen of flexibility in your thinking. You could start by amazing me and all the others who know you, by explaining, not how Power Balance bracelets are sold -- with tricks and pseudoscience fluff at high prices -- but how they work, such that someone like me might sanely consider buying a cheap knockoff version for his daughter for a couple of dollars, and specifically how a specific "energy bracelet" might work under specific conditions.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:

Best look into unit 7863. It seems to have a quite different history. Possibly payments defaulted and was sold during the test. Nothing showing that it could not have been rented, though.
I'm still not quite convinced that the data listed is actually for that address. The property address seems to jump around a bit in the same general neighborhood, when you follow the supposed owner trail. Maybe someone else can make better sense out of it.

These are condos. They are individually owned. There are eight units, I think. It's easy to see in the overhead view. The unit numbers are on the doors. These are all addresses on the Street, not the Avenue. I have not checked it all, but it looks consistent to me. Unit 6 works.Even though it is one building, each unit has its own street address. Unit 6 was a condo designation in the building, it is not part of the address.

The eight units would be, on NW 46th Street, 7851, 7853, 7855, 7857, 7859, 7861, 7863, 7865. Notice that Ledakon Americas was at 7861. So that is the exact condo. 7859, the number can be seen on the next door in a google street view.

7859 is http://www.rontan.com/

Quote from "Jed"

It seems he and/or Penon gave the data to several people. Other people read it directly from the instruments. There aren't all that many parameters recorded, and not much data. There may be other parameters or additional data recorded elsewhere. I wouldn't know.

From what I heard the actual reports are not that long, but attached to them are many pages with millions of datapoints. Reports sent to IH quarterly did not differ and Darden/IH happily used them to pitch for investments... Allthough when it came to them paying $89M they sort of changed their mind about the reports... Go figure.

Quote from "sad dog Abd"

Sifferkoll is desperate, he invested in puts on oil prices, believing that the announcement of the completion of the 1 MW plant test would cause them to fall. That didn't happen like that. He also has a "close friend," I'd call her, who holds Hydro Fusion stock, but that's small. I've wondered why he didn't himself invest, he could probably put in substantially more.

Oh. As you might have noticed oilprice is back at the $40 handle... which is nice since some of my previously otm puts are now itm (so you do not need to worry )... And maybe I did invest myself as well thru a company (or not - info is as you know official). But, as you say - not much; since I tend to consider the risk profile when investing looking for good multiples. BTW, I do not consider the Rossi fraud scenario as any risk at all (it works and the MW test was a success - there is no doubt), compared to other political/violently/legally negative scenarios that IH tries to implement (maybe as a proxy). Many powerful forces would like to have useful LENR contained since it is highly disruptive on a geopolitical scale, especially the US mil/gov/edu complex. Other parts of the world are more open to change since they have less to lose. (except for the AGW/edu tas financed crowd).

You could of course call all this conspiracy theories, but to me it is simply following the money. And as you so "cleverly" uncovered by naming my "friend" (who has nothing to do with this discussion) ... I do put the money where my mouth is in several ways. What about you Abd? Do you put the money where your mouth is? I certainly believe you do ...

Only alternative I believe is that you are driven by envy, fear and/or hate (like Mary Yugo has testified). Envy I believe is really strong among some parts of the pre-Rossi LENR community.

And, a quick note on the religious stuff; I'm not against christianity in general; but the hypochrisy shown by the "hand on the bible" folks like Weaver gives me the creeps and the "pardoned" and "forgiven" part by unknown singular fantasy entities for sins against fellow real people is disgusting. I have similar problems with the moral foundation of islam in general for the same reasons and in the islam case many more.

Quote from "Alan"

LET'S ALL STAY TOTALLY AWAY FROM RELIGION PLEASE. A NON-TOPIC FOR A SCIENCE-BASED FORUM.

I agree Alan, with one exception and that is I believe it to be and important fact that Weaver several times dodged the question about testifying that Rossi had never produced excess heat for IH with the "hand on the bible". He was as we all know able to state a lot of other things, but not that. And to that he added the comment about already being forgiven and pardoned for what he had done (undefined) ...