Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th

    • Official Post

    Finally the information emerging from the Court documents. I don't expect it to be consistent. IH are gathering info, attacking Rossi on every possible front. (They say this in the documents). They don't expect every attack to succeed but they will have enough ammunition to get to the bottom of these matters (they expect) through Court processes that force exact information from witnesses under penalty of perjury. They are doing what they must to get to the truth.


    In an American court, a witness/defendant can take the 5th - extract of case law below. So automatic charges pf [erjury are not a given.


    Defense counsel advises the Court that all individual defendants plan to invoke their FifthAmendment privilege to refrain from self-incrimination.


    What happens if you invoke the privilege against self-incrimination in a civil case?


    1. You can do it, and you won’t be held in contempt for failing to testify. Though the provision says that no person “shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,” the Supreme Court has made clear that this extends to compelling a person to testify in a civil case, when that compelled testimony could later be used against him in a criminal case. See, e.g., McCarthy v. Arndstein (1924):


    The Government insists, broadly, that the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination does not apply in any civil proceeding. The contrary must be accepted as settled. The privilege is not ordinarily dependent upon the nature of the proceeding in which the testimony is sought or is to be used. It applies alike to civil and criminal proceedings, wherever the answer might tend to subject to criminal responsibility him who gives it.


    2. But a decision to take the Fifth may be used against a party in a civil case (if the party is the witness who refuses to testify, or is closely enough connected to the witness). In a criminal case, the judge and the prosecutor may not tell a jury “that it may draw an inference of guilt from a defendant’s failure to testify about facts relevant to his case.” But that’s not so in a civil case, see, e.g., Baxter v. Palmigiano (1976):


    [T]he Fifth Amendment does not forbid adverse inferences against parties to civil actions when they refuse to testify in response to probative evidence offered against them.

  • After those new pictures, do we still have anyone here that believes in Rossi?


    What exactly do those pictures provide as a proof that the gadget does not work or outputs 600w?


    Oh you mean that the whole block would be cooked if there was 1kw heat in the hangar?


    We've been hearing that for months, what is new?

  • Quote

    But a decision to take the Fifth may be used against a party in a civil case (if the party is the witness who refuses to testify, or is closely enough connected to the witness). In a criminal case, the judge and the prosecutor may not tell a jury “that it may draw an inference of guilt from a defendant’s failure to testify about facts relevant to his case.” But that’s not so in a civil case


    Right, so if people (e.g. Rossi's lawyer) refuse to answer questions they are allowed to do that, but the refusal can be taken as evidence that Rossi is wrong. Equally, if they do say things, and those things are false, perjury applies.


    It is not a perfect tool to get to the truth, but still pretty powerful.

  • The better question in my opinion is: What is left to believe in, if something at all...


    Tons of evidence of LENR dating back to the XIXth century (because let's not be deliberately obtuse: attacks against Rossi are attacks against LENR too)
    All the tests and testimonies since 2011
    General psychology, tone and toxicity of anti-rossiites

  • I do not deny that LENR hopefully is real, but I gave up completely on Rossi having something to believe in. This is what I meant. Rossi is done - no serious business man or investor will everstart again to negotiate or cooperate with him. This may change if there will be a product by Rossi at some point in time, but hardly to think of after all this. He never met any of his promises and claims with respect to an industrial or home product, did he?

  • Right, so if people (e.g. Rossi's lawyer) refuse to answer questions they are allowed to do that, but the refusal can be taken as evidence that Rossi is wrong. Equally, if they do say things, and those things are false, perjury applies.


    It is not a perfect tool to get to the truth, but still pretty powerful.


    What are the chances to that Penon will simply ignore the summons to court?

  • Quote from Jack Cole

    What are the chances to that Penon will simply ignore the summons to court?


    Pretty high I'd guess, but in that case I don't think Rossi will be able to claim that the test is good. The fact that Penon did not answer (as IH claim) their reasonable questions is damning - his salary was half paid by them. Whether IH's counter-claim will fly is maybe more difficult?


    The most likely outcome is that Rossi will string things out for as long as possible and then cave in. What may make that impossible is that I doubt now IH want to reach a "hear no evil, see no evil, say no evil" type settlement which brushes things under the carpet. I may be wrong - it is usually the best outcome in such cases. I reckon there are a few people would like to see Rossi's money taken away from him - can IH justify the attempt to do that on a cost/benefit basis? Maybe they don't yet know.


    Quote from Keieue

    General psychology, tone and toxicity of anti-rossiites [is evidence for LENR]


    I have to say you are on weak ground talking of toxicity when your own posts concentrate on personalities and perceived morals of other posters- which in my view is how things become toxic.


    More to the point - internet criticism of an idea, some of which is over the top or unpleasant, is no evidence for said idea.


    Quote from Keieue

    All the tests and testimonies since 2011


    I guess this is evidence for Rossi LENR. Rossi's own tests don't do this, once you look for technical detail beneath "dramatic effect". The many MFMP-type amateur tests are also not positive - look at what those who are directly involved in them and reviewing evidence say. The good ones produce possible low-levels of excess heat etc of a type similar to that observed elsewhere and very different from Rossi's claimed reliable high level.

  • Not my fault if some PR devils infest those premises. What are people spreading lies and FUD? : *expletives*
    You don't address liars by debating, since they operate on a lower level and engage in corrupt communication. So, you just call them out :)


    See: you deliberately say "this is all hokum Rossi or other researchers, only low level heat if at all"
    So, there's really no arguing with blatant dishonesty, only rational course of action is calling you an enemy of mankind and nature



    Again: what groundbreaking disproof do those pictures bring?


    Please remember that there are NO liars here. Just people with different opinions strongly held. Alan.

    • Official Post

    What exactly do those pictures provide as a proof that the gadget does not work or outputs 600w?


    Oh you mean that the whole block would be cooked if there was 1kw heat in the hangar?


    We've been hearing that for months, what is new?



    Kei,


    The old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words", comes to mind. Especially a straight up one, as opposed to a grainy, wide angle one. ;)


    And yes, this has been talked about for some time. And no one has been able to prove their point either. To borrow another saying about economists and apply it here: "if you put all the engineers end to end, would they come to a conclusion". :)


    Yes, they actually could if given all the parameters; i.e. roof material, vents (forced and passive), doors (opened or closed, AC strength...what was actually on the other side, etc. But they did not have that here, so they were all over the place. Now they know by looking at the picture that it is a very solidly, tightly constructed building. Even a non-technical guy like me -as our old Tom used to call me, can see that Rossi's explanations no longer fly.


    Did you notice how he is covering up this latest controversy brought on by that pic? Now he says ALL the heat went into the product. No venting necessary. I do not think that is possible, but I could be wrong? Plus, he contradicts many of his earlier comments on JONP about heat inside the plant, and outside his "computer room", while the "test" was underway. One lie to cover another.


    I really think he will implode soon. His case is falling apart before his very own eyes. That nice cushy life style he has now playing tennis, beach living, and jetting between Europe and the US, may soon disappear. He may even end up in the slammer wearing black/white pajamas! :)


    Try not to take take this so personal. Rossi does not deserve your defense of him. There are other promising developments in IH's portfolio to focus on according to Dewey.

  • Quote from Keieue

    See: you deliberately say "this is all hokum Rossi or other researchers, only low level heat if at all"


    I think you are confused about this.


    I'm not a liar, and while anyone can be wrong many here would agree with what I've said. Are they liars too?

  • LENR is the perfect area for Rossi to exploit. Its proponents believe the field to be discriminated against by skeptics who do not look properly at the evidence. Proponents are frustrated because they have so many tantalising hints of an effect that would have massive positive technological implications if real. How could they not give Rossi as much credit as possible.


    Indeed. LENR, being something of a fringe science, has been a fertile ground for the peddling of all kinds of strange claims (some of them very entertaining). In this context for five or so years now Rossi has been able maintain appearances of possibly having something very interesting and valuable, but has deliberately kept it just out of reach of credible validation. Perhaps he even has had such a thing; if so, his behavior has been enormously self-destructive and to everyone's detriment. I think it is more likely that he has had little to nothing, and that in any event he is now reaching his end game.


    I'm very optimistic about where things have come. If IH knowingly sought to test Rossi's claims and gave him ample room to prove himself, on the assumption that he would either deliver or prove to be a flake, I think we can be grateful to them for helping to clear up the matter. Beyond that Rossi has hopefully served as an antibody of sorts and has introduced some sanity into the LENR field. Hopefully now hobbyists, especially, but also some LENR researchers, will step up their game and start to apply more rigor and skepticism to claims that are made. This is good for everyone, because a higher bar means that any claims that are able to make it over the bar are more likely to be the real thing.

  • The question as to the destination of the heat produced has been answered -- an endothermic chemical process.


    There must not be a huge number of industrial processes that are massively endothermic, highly efficient, and utilize steam at around 100C. If the highly intelligent individuals on this forum will clunk their heads together, we should be able to determine the process. Would anyone like to provide a potential answer?

  • So there's really nothing new in those photographs, just the usual "omg look at this you couldn't possibly not spontaneously combust in there"


    Maybe he baked a lot of bread 24/7?
    And then he fed it to morlocks from Inner Earth, who dug a secret tunnel up to the customer area?
    What if Rossi is going to be the ambassador of Inner/Outer Earth World Peace?


    You could say anything, there's still nothing new but this endless empty noise about living conditions in the customer area when 1MW was delivered there

  • What are the chances to that Penon will simply ignore the summons to court?


    Italy has an extradition treaty with the U.S., but I think it covers criminal matters, not a civil suit. I don't know.


    I do not think it is a crime to ignore a civil suit summons, but you end with a summary judgement against you. In other words, you lose, automatically.


    Someone who knows a lot more about the law than I should comment.


    http://www.canestrinilex.com/resources/extradition-italy/

  • Did you notice how he is covering up this latest controversy brought on by that pic? Now he says ALL the heat went into the product. No venting necessary. I do not think that is possible, but I could be wrong


    That is impossible. There are endothermic industrial processes, but they use only a tiny faction of the heat. The rest is waste heat. Textbooks often list baking bread as a typical endothermic process. Most of heat comes out of the oven, which is why a bakery is hot.

  • There must not be a huge number of industrial processes that are massively endothermic, highly efficient, and utilize steam at around 100C.


    There are none.


    Granted, there are some chemical endothermic reactions that absorb so much heat, the reaction products get colder than the environment, absorbing heat from the surroundings. Here is a well-know example:


    "Endothermic reactions include thermal decomposition of compounds e.g. carbonates, the reaction between citric acid and sodium hydrogencarbonate, sports injury packs to produce cooling effects."


    http://www.docbrown.info/page03/3_51energyA.htm


    However, endothermic industrial processes all generate waste heat, but it is less heat than there would be if the process were not happening. In other words, if you ran the oven at a bakery with no bread it it, the bakery would be a little hotter than it is when you bake bread.


    Photosynthesis is the most common endothermic reaction. The input is light, not heat, but energy is energy. Rossi's claim is like saying there is a room full of growing plants and they absorb so much light, the entire room is pitch black, and no light from it can be detected. In real life, most of the light is reflected, or it is the wrong wavelength. Photosynthesis is 3 to 6% efficient.

  • The question as to the destination of the heat produced has been answered -- an endothermic chemical process.


    There must not be a huge number of industrial processes that are massively endothermic, highly efficient, and utilize steam at around 100C. If the highly intelligent individuals on this forum will clunk their heads together, we should be able to determine the process. Would anyone like to provide a potential answer?


    There are plenty, if one doesn't mind shuffling around 140000 to 280000 kg of materials each and every day.

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