Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

Quote from ele

Note that what you say automatically (by logic) extends also to all investors who gave money to IH.

So Bernie is automatically excused also.

It wasn't his fault that thousands of people lost BILLIONS of dollars.

It was their fault.

This is the BIG narrative here.

That because IH have some shady elements in their history,

they must share EQUAL blame.

Sorry, but NO.

The conman is the one at fault and deserves to be exposed as such.

The people who fell for it...........

Well should the following list be held accountable for their part in a con ?

Jewish Community Foundation of Los Angeles

The Spielberg charity

Mortimer B. Zuckerman Charitable Remainder Trust

Robert I. Lappin Charitable Foundation

Chais Family Foundation

The Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity

Sen. Frank Lautenberg charitable foundation

Julian J. Levitt charitable Foundation

J. Gurwin Foundation charitable Foundation

If you think IH should suffer, then you are OK with the list above suffering also

We know Rossi is a conman, at least because (by his own admission) of JMP.

Do you think Madoff should have walked free ?

And in actual fact gained 3 times more money from the Rubes above.

Or was it right to expose him ?

Conman <> Victim who did not do proper due dilligence.

Pete

Quote from ele

"Gullible" Juries out there ?

Did you understand that you are insulting the US Justice system ?

Yes, I do realize that. Many people insult the U.S. justice system, and various other government institutions. In some cases they deserve to be insulted.

But you should note, I am insulting some juries, in some cases. Not all juries. There are millions of trials and juries, so there are bound to be some stinkers among them. So . . . What was your point again? Are you trolling, by any chance?

Quote from ele

You "occasionally read" and then you know more than all a Jury ?

I know more than some juries.

And I would like to add to the above:

That if IH Conned Woodford etc into investing 50+ million,

then IH deserve to lose that also.

I would imagine that Neil is savvy enough to know that he can get that back right ?

If he thinks he has a case.

Pete

Quote from Paradigmnoia

I bet that IH knows where the boxes are, what is in them, and can show them to the Court if neccesary. Gosh, they probably even have photos and videos featuring the contents, and gigabytes of data from the various reactor experiments.

I bet the same for Rossi's equipment, including the gigabytes of data.

Quote from IH Fanboy

I bet the same for Rossi's equipment, including the gigabytes of data.

Are you talking about the GigaBytes of data Fabiani claimed (under oath in deposition) that he destroyed?

Or is it GigaBytes of data that Rossi has in his possession which IH provided court-ordered discovery production requests for that they never received? (Which is a felony if Rossi is knowingly witholding it)

Quote from PIH

Sorry, but NO.

The conman is the one at fault and deserves to be exposed as such.

The people who fell for it...........

Well should the following list be held accountable for their part in a con ?

Jewish Community Foundation of Los Angeles

The Spielberg charity

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In my opinion, these organizations are slightly at fault. Madoff deserves most of the blame, but they deserve a small slice.

First, because they should have known better. They had a fiduciary responsibility to check into the claims more closely, and consult with experts.

Second, for a more subtle reason. As the saying goes, "you can't cheat an honest man." The decision makers at these organizations thought they had an inside edge. An advantage over the rest of society. They thought they were getting a special deal -- an extra high return on investment that an ordinary Joe putting his money in the bank could never dream of getting. That is slightly unethical. Okay, that's capitalism. In real life wealthy people do often get inside information and an inside chance to make more money that ordinary folks do not get. But when the opportunity is apparently as wonderful as what Madoff offered, and supposedly risk free, if it had been real, I think it would verge on unethical. This is what the Marxists call rentier capitalism, and I think it has a bad smell.

I do not find it unethical when wealthy people risk their money and get a large return. That's what I.H. was doing. No one knows better than I how risky cold fusion is! But when wealthy people think the risk is low and yet the return is gigantic, they contribute to the growing inequality of society and justified resentment against capitalism. They are knowingly playing in a rigged system. They shouldn't do that. They should insist that such opportunities be made available to all people, including middle class and poor people with a little money to invest. That is how public stock markets are supposed to work. That's the whole point of the stock market. Originally, anyway. Nowadays it is just computers trying to outwit other computers.

Quote from JedRothwell

They were not doubled as far as I know. People who saw the test equipment did not tell me there were redundant instruments. They are not shown in Penon's schematic. Perhaps Rossi said this on his blog, but Rossi often lies

DOC 215/3/page 192 says there were two

· · · Q.· · The, the second one?
· · · A.· · The digital manometer, that's correct.
· · · Q.· · Okay.· But the first one was?
· · · A.· · Yeah.· We don't know where the -- this is the ·device that Dr. Penon indicated was used to capture the ·pressure data for the system.·

No Rossi Blog no lies except, may be from your informant.

Regarding the 100mio.++ $'s. That's tricky. Rossi definitively has the more talented, real world lawyer, not relaying on behind the doors work.

I guess nobody within IH would like to pull out (of the 1MW) one big Franky and give it to a public tester. I have no doubt that such a tester would confirm a high enough COP to fulfill the contract.

This would be the worst case for IH because then they must provide triple cash...

Regarding the Penon report, they must pay, even if 1MW is fake, what IH knew since the start of the test. There was an internal discussion (according Murray) in IH to simplify the Doral test to make it easier for AR to get the additional money. You don't make any discussions if you know that everything is just fake!

May be, in twenty years, after three bottles of fine Italian wine, You will tell us the true story...

Quote from JedRothwell

1. In my opinion, these organizations are slightly at fault. Madoff deserves most of the blame, but they deserve a small slice.

2. They should insist that such opportunities be made available to all people, including middle class and poor people with a little money to invest. That is how public stock markets are supposed to work.

1. Just because they deserve a small slice, does not make the blame equal.

That is what we see here in this thread all the time.

Yes, Rossi was at fault because of X , but IH also did Y.

So they are equally to blame.

Because "X=wrong" doesn't make "Y=same_amount_of_wrong"

Again, as mentioned somewhere above, just because all lions are animals, does not make all animals lions.

2. Agree

Pete

Quote from Alan Smith

No Thankyou. The level of discussion only just scrapes by now. Two Trumps, one Madoff and a Rossi is full house enough.

In all seriousness, Zero politics.

Sorry Alan,

I went to Bernie because it illustrates that the level of fault of the perpetrator

does not equal the level of blame for the victim. (and Mary went there first :))

Pete

Actually thinking about it, and with OGs post below,

I would like to withdraw that apology.

This thread is so entertaining BECAUSE it was Rossi that initiated preceedings.

I was following thread 1 and decided to register and comment

here in thread 2 because it was becoming so bizarre.

I would not have been at this forum were it not for this unusual circumstance.

So if I am to be sanctioned, so be it.

(But BM is not political and it it is not off topic

since it demonstrates the absurdity)

Pete

Quote from PIH

Sorry Alan,

I went to Bernie because it illustrates that the level of fault of the perpetrator

does not equal the level of blame for the victim. (and Mary went there first :))

Pete

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And IH is the victim here in this suit. It is Rossi that attacked IH - even before the payment was due.

@OG,

Thanks for your clarification.

Quote from joshg

If Rossi is a con artist, he is also exceptional, I think, in his ability to "talk shop" with physicists such as Focardi, Hoistad, Essen, Kullander and others with whom he has interacted with in person on an extended basis. According to Mats's book, the Swedish group was apparently quite impressed with him and his knowledge of physics. And Focardi worked with him, as well. I think that is one of the things that makes it difficult for some people to come to terms with the notion that he is just scamming people. I don't know that it makes it more or less likely, but it certainly seems to make him a unique con man with unusual talents.

Quote from interested observer

Sorry joshg, but anyone with a decent knowledge of physics who reads or listens to Rossi's statements about science finds them laughable. There have been numerous examples of this over the years.

Rossi fails to solve the simplest calculations - e.g, here a mistake by 3 order of magnitude (and this was not just a sloopy glitch - he didn't want to correct his failure even when some guys made him aware of it)

Quote

Andrea Rossi

August 15th, 2015 at 8:47 AM

Steven N. Karels, Arnie:

Cm’on: 1 g of matter entirely converted into energy gives 25 MWh of energy (from Einstein equation).

Start from here, which is simpler, and remake your math.

You can get solace, anyway, because what you wrote means you are well educated: education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school.

Warm Regards,

A.R.

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Quote from Shane D.

So I see politics is open for discussion. Boy, do I have some things to say about Obama, and how Europe has committed cultural suicide. Anyone interested?

AR had something to say about Obama.

Whoops. I meant DT, not AR.

Whoops again. I saw your post too late, Alan.

Quote from Wyttenbach

· · · A.· · Yeah.· We don't know where the -- this is the ·device that Dr. Penon indicated was used to capture the ·pressure data for the system.·

No Rossi Blog no lies except, may be from your informant.

He said they do not know where it is, because no one saw it. Because it did not exist.

Quote from sigmoidal

The fact that after all these years, when we know that IH was trying to do that (the water bath 'pig') and that many have proposed to Rossi to do that but he has refused, demonstrates conclusively his poor engineering skills.

Or opaque intentions.

Quote from sigmoidal

This may boil down to semantics, because I think what you are more accurately observing is that Rossi has some unique 'technical' skills.

Yes, I think that's right. I didn't mean to suggest that he is a great engineer in the proper sense (I have no expertise to judge). Only that he has a canny ability to figure out how to cheat the tests (or, for people who believe him, he has a canny way to design tests with loopholes). I called that "a particular set of engineering skills," but you could just as well call them technical skills.

Quote from JedRothwell

In my opinion, these organizations are slightly at fault. Madoff deserves most of the blame, but they deserve a small slice.

First, because they should have known better. They had a fiduciary responsibility to check into the claims more closely, and consult with experts.

Second, for a more subtle reason. As the saying goes, "you can't cheat an honest man." The decision makers at these organizations thought they had an inside edge. An advantage over the rest of society. They thought they were getting a special deal -- an extra high return on investment that an ordinary Joe putting his money in the bank could never dream of getting. That is slightly unethical. Okay, that's capitalism. In real life wealthy people do often get inside information and an inside chance to make more money that ordinary folks do not get. But when the opportunity is apparently as wonderful as what Madoff offered, and supposedly risk free, if it had been real, I think it would verge on unethical. This is what the Marxists call rentier capitalism, and I think it has a bad smell.

I do not find it unethical when wealthy people risk their money and get a large return. That's what I.H. was doing. No one knows better than I how risky cold fusion is! But when wealthy people think the risk is low and yet the return is gigantic, they contribute to the growing inequality of society and justified resentment against capitalism. They are knowingly playing in a rigged system. They shouldn't do that. They should insist that such opportunities be made available to all people, including middle class and poor people with a little money to invest. That is how public stock markets are supposed to work. That's the whole point of the stock market. Originally, anyway. Nowadays it is just computers trying to outwit other computers.

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Madoff is an infinitely more credible and believable conman than Rossi, which is the biggest mystery of all in this "drama"---WHY supposedly experienced investors would fork over $10M with no due-diligence (I'd want my money back if I were an "investor"), notwithstanding anyone's hair on the back of their neck should stand up to someone hawking the greatest invention of the century with a bundle of crude pipe, hidden in insulation and a couple of thermocouples and heaters. If one were to write a move about this, they would have to make major changes to the Rossi persona, and technical presentation, to make it halfway believable to the audience (that anyone would fall for it), including, but not limited to: omitting his past public history of cons, much more professional looking experimental apparatus than his crude insulation wrapped, home depot pipe oragami, omitting (or actually producing) the "mystery" customer whom no one was allowed to see, along with the mega heat exchanger, etc.

Rossi could have made a fortune, legally, as an Amway salesman, a "quadruple-diamond-direct distributor", probably easier.

Quote from PIH

That is what we see here in this thread all the time.

Yes, Rossi was at fault because of X , but IH also did Y.

So they are equally to blame.

As somebody who has sacrificed an outsized number of pixels on the altar of pointing out the illogic and inconsistencies in IH's position, I can say that you are drawing a false inference. Just because I point out IH's warts, does not mean I believe they are equally to blame in being defrauded by Rossi. The inference you draw does not follow naturally from the premises -- you are the one filling in that blank.