Clearance Items

  • Thetruemonty : Nah, no bravery. Hanging out in a place where you don't share the opinions of most other people means you are branded a crackpot, an ignoramus, or the shill of Big Something-or-other. Hardly painful or frightening. Mostly just silly.


    @Alan: Having never been savaged by a sheep in any stage of life, I can't really speculate.


    Boy, you all get so touchy when somebody notes that skeptics are not beloved here. It's ok. Really!

  • I am not sure ECN warrants wistful nostalgia. It, of course, began as a Rossi fan site and skeptical opinions were regularly banned by the proprietor. Eventually, he lost the faith and became completely hands-off. It became the only completely unmoderated site on the topic and, unsuprisingly, was pretty chaotic and often degenerated into lengthy abuse sessions. As Roger observed, if nothing else it certainly was entertaining at times. Over time, the population skewed heavily towards skeptics and the remaining believers were primarily the angriest hardcore Rossiphiles who apparently enjoyed the give-and-take and the experience of spending time in the lions' den. I suppose for them it was pretty much the equivalent experience to being a skeptic here.


    A lions den you say? Nah, it was nothing like that. It was a joyous place which I enjoyed so! I wasn't a regular contributor, more an observer. Perhaps I was an interested observer? Hmm, makes me wonder. Any ways ECN was a place for much mutual doling of praise. If Popeye posted something you would then have NTAK jump in and give him a face-full of praise. That would be followed by JKW, Mary Yugo, Pweet etc. Much doling of praise. Each got his or her turn. They enjoyed that very much.

  • My questions about calorimetry, in particular placement and insertion of probes, is totally valid. I cannot see how this is construed as trolling behavior.


    There was no suggestion that this particular line of questions is what is getting you into difficulties. But I suppose you already knew that.


    Unless you're making a subtle reference to what was written in that post to Peter Gluck's blog, which I hope you're not doing.

  • I feel like we're the only LENR site on the Internet where both skeptics and the hard core Rossi followers feel the same way about this.


    Seems you're mixing up people and their approach of LENR: "hard core" (?) Rossi followers are actually skeptical that "cold fusion" is the hoax that we've been told is a hoax for nearly 30 years now, doubting that this inventor is a criminal hyperpsychic mastermind who's been able to hypnotise for 10 years the scientists who evaluated his work IRL, and teach fellow hypnotists his craft so they get hired by universities.

    What you call "skeptics" are actually a mix of social engineers spending their time trying to slow down LENR by occupying verbal space in the biggest LENR forum around, and some hardcore (this time for real) pseudo-skeptics who need to hold onto their beliefs.

  • Roger , I get the impression you're confusing LENR optimists with Rossi supporters. One group (LENR optimists) is a (large?) superset of the other (Rossi supporters). One can be quite optimistic about LENR and at the same time quite doubtful about, or even convinced against, Rossi.


    Skeptics are yet another group. But there are overlap and shades of gray. The conspiracy theories you allude to are obviously just that and are readily identified as such by all but a few susceptible to fringe beliefs. People who see the field in terms of a battle of good and evil, of big interests attempting to kill LENR in its cradle, have in my view a skewed and inaccurate diagnosis of the real challenges facing the scientific investigation of LENR at this time. There are plenty of challenges as it is, including obtaining funding and systematically figuring out what's going on without falling into artifacts of various kinds.


    But these points have all been made several times before.

  • What you call "skeptics" are actually a mix of social engineers spending their time trying to slow down LENR by occupying verbal space in the biggest LENR forum around, and some hardcore (this time for real) pseudo-skeptics who need to hold onto their beliefs.


    I am a skeptic.

    I do not spend my time social engineering or trying to slow down LENR. I want LENR to be real and available ASAP.

    As a matter of fact I have money invested in Woodford and put more in with all the hype and hope around Rossi. I turned out to be wrong about that.

    At least I can admit when I am wrong.


    "Criminal hyperpsychic mastermind hypnotising scientists for 10 years." What a baloney straw man argument.

    You are just trying to make the side you disagree with, "the skeptics", look ridiculous but are merely making yourself look ridiculous.


    Talking of ridiculous; a Rossi supporter on ECat World actually suggested that the enemies of Rossi had failed to stop him so Satan had now sent Irma to target Rossi so we should pray for him. Presumably Satan also hates the oil companies based in Houston.


    I guess each of us have a greater or lesser grip on what is real and what we make up in our heads.

    Still we can all be wrong and we can all be fooled, either by others, or by ourselves.

  • The conspiracy theories you allude to are obviously just that, and are readily identified as such by all but a few. People who see things in terms of battles of good and evil, and of big interests attempting to kill LENR, have in my view a skewed and inaccurate diagnosis of the real challenges facing the scientific investigation of LENR at this time.

    I agree. That is largely true. However, back in the 1990s there were some people who went after cold fusion because of academic politics, and some, such as the plasma fusion scientists, who went after it because it threatened their funding. There was never a "conspiracy" by the dictionary definition: "a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful" or "an organized group." It was never secret, and not a bit organized. On the other hand, people such as Robert Park openly and repeatedly bragged that he and his friends in the government would "root out and fire" anyone who applied for cold fusion funding or tried to organize a conference. He said that to a large crowd of people at the APS and got a standing ovation. So there was a lot of animosity toward the research. There still is. Plus, as I have pointed out, thanks to Park and others, many researchers were fired, threatened with deportation, or had their experiment trashed.


    Park wasn't the only one. You can read quotes from important people railing against cold fusion here:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEclassicnas.pdf


    Such attacks have a large impact. Words have consequences. When the Washington Post claims that a small, powerless group of scientists are liars, frauds and lunatics (as Park puts it), those scientists get into huge trouble. Their careers are derailed, or ended.


    There are very few attacks today because the anti-cold fusion crowd won. Funding quickly ended, even though projects such as the National Cold Fusion Institute soon proved beyond any doubt that cold fusion is a real nuclear effect. In a rational world where people do science instead of politics, those results alone would have convinced every scientist on earth. What happened instead is that cold fusion researchers were thrown out, or they retired, or died. No young research could study this effect. He or she would be thrown out in a week, and would never again find a job in academia.

  • On ECN's I would occasionally link to the NYT's articles written right after, and a few years post FPs, when someone like Popeye would claim: "CF was embraced by the mainstream from the beginning". Clearly, the reporting showed that not to be the case. You may make the argument that FPs got a 2-3 month grace period, but that is being generous. It quickly degraded into a mob mentality, with little in the way of fairness. Funny to see grown, and very smart men acting that way.

  • You may make the argument that FPs got a 2-3 month grace period, but that is being generous.

    They didn't get a grace period. The first attacks by MIT and others were launched within days of the announcement, as Mallove described. On the day of the announcement, Fleischmann correctly predicted they would be throw out of the establishment (described in Beaudette's book).

    It quickly degraded into a mob mentality, with little in the way of fairness. Funny to see grown, and very smart men acting that way.

    This is typical primate behavior. It is common in all human and chimpanzee societies. History is full of examples. Of course people often act rationally. That is why we have civilization, and why our institutions often work well. But in some cases, people act irrationally. They are destructive, even against their own interests.


    That is why, for example, the minicomputer companies drove themselves out of business instead of responding to the challenge of the PC computers. They voluntarily jumped off a cliff. A company such as Data General might have become Microsoft and Intel combined, but they were hostile toward the product instead. (I was dealing with them at the time, so I know what they did. IBM sounded them out about using their OS instead of Microsoft's. I don't know the details about what happened, but in the early days of the PC, Data General could have marketed their OS on their own, and captured the market. It was way better than Microsoft's.)


    This is politics. All primates must engage in politics, as do many other intelligent species, meaning they all vie for power and influence, to have their way, and prevail over others. Chimpanzees, wolves and humans sometimes settle arguments and vie for power by fighting, sometimes even fighting to the death. They cannot do that every time, or the species will go extinct. So they have to have mechanisms for settling disputes short of these extremes, by influencing others, by kissing up to others, praising them, or frightening them, and by various other methods. Broadly speaking, we call this behavior politics.


    Politics are not always a bad thing. When conducted with moderation and wisdom, they are essential. But when they go off the rails and hysteria replaces rationality, bad things happen. Such as World War I, the demise of the minicomputer industry, or the suppression of cold fusion.

  • JedRothwell


    At the risk of being banned, I will say it again, there is no conspiracy against LENR. There never has been. It is simple to prove LENR conclusively and this has yet to be done, despite what you say Jed. And yes, during my ban I did spend much time reviewing the documentation you pointed me to. Unfortunately it comes down to the same issue over and over again. Calorimerty.

  • If only you could find someone who is a world-class expert in calorimetry.

    Or several hundred people! Plus people who are world-class experts in measuring tritium, helium and x-rays, and who published in mainstream peer-reviewed journals. Yes, if we had that The Real Roger Barker and Mary Yugo would be persuaded.


    </sarcasm>


    Note to people unfamiliar with the subject: we have had that since 1992.

  • what make me sad is that not seing the evidence there was excess heat and tritium in pdD electrolysis, and no heat in Doral is possible for too many people, not even with a monetary agenda.


    we should not feel ashamed here, skeptic, or believers, and today's newspaper, ministry decisions and TV news show me that incompetence, denial of evidences, shameless attack on realists, cheering of the deluded to avoid troubles, is mainstream.


    no community of opinion have any lesson to give.

  • </sarcasm>


    Note to people unfamiliar with the subject: we have had that since 1992.


    ...</sarcasm>


    Note to people unfamiliar with the subject: There are world-class experts, and also self-proclaimed world-class experts*... One needs to be careful when distinguishing between the two.


    Eh, Mary?


    *Sorry, but relevant links are (correctly) considered to be 'doxxing'.

  • I can understand, that controversial topics like the LENR cannot exist without pathoskeptic trolls like maryyugo who doubt everything and confused apologists like axil who promote every nonsense - but it would great if this forum would work on their gradual elimination instead of proliferation of extremists at least.


    Moved from another thread. Eric

  • Quote

    I can understand, that controversial topics like the LENR cannot exist without pathoskeptic trolls like maryyugo who doubt everything


    Oh good! Then please: WHY is LENR a controversial topic?

    Especially since, as per Rothwell, experimenters have been recording data indicative of more than a hundred watts sustained power for long periods and with no power input and they have been doing it for three decades?


    I and people like me doubt "everything?" Gee, seems I don't have trouble with 99.99% of scientific claims. But I seem to encounter a hitch when I consider claims by the likes of Carl Tilley, Steorn, Defkalion, Rossi and well... those sorts. How do you explain that I mainly have trouble with those who later turn out to be crooks?