Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

  • Rossi will have to wait to go down in the annals with the likes of Bernie, et.al., which indeed would have been the case if his bold attempt to extract another $89M by suing the folks that he'd already extracted $11M from had succeeded. Too bad he tucked his tail and ran like a scalded ECat when his bluff was called, people would have liked to have seen that proceed in court. But, NOW we are informed by the Brethren, that Rossi's grand ingenious plot all along was simply to get his Water Heater IP back, and be free to work on the QuackX. So now humanity must wait with bated breath for the opening of the QuackX Show, and to disconnect from the grid for a fraction of the energy prices they're paying now with a Quackx, made by the millions in invisible robotic factories, humming away in the closet, zero emissions and waste....while plasma-glowing fluorescent pigs and unicorns dart through the sky.

  • Rossi will have to wait to go down in the annals with the likes of Bernie, et.al., which indeed would have been the case if his bold attempt to extract another $89M by suing the folks that he'd already extracted $11M from had succeeded. Too bad he tucked his tail and ran like a scalded ECat when his bluff was called, people would have liked to have seen that proceed in court. But, NOW we are informed by the Brethren, that Rossi's grand ingenious plot all along was simply to get his Water Heater IP back, and be free to work on the QuackX. So now humanity must wait with bated breath for the opening of the QuackX Show, and to disconnect from the grid for a fraction of the energy prices they're paying now with a Quackx, made by the millions in invisible robotic factories, humming away in the closet, zero emissions and waste....while plasma-glowing fluorescent pigs and unicorns dart through the sky.

    Yep, you've convinced me. I guess it's time to pack up my marbles and go home. ;)

  • Wikipedia is open to collaboration. If you don't agree just participate to the discussion and correct the article providing documents that sustain your thesis.

    Wikipedia has also strict policy on copyright (your article must be original).

    So is the best result of Internet Common and Open collaboration.

    Wikipedia banned Jed Rothwell and as far as I can tell, anyone who has positive things to say about the science behind LENR. It's almost pure bullshit.


    https://www.google.com/search?…160k1j33i21k1.yNQPs5Nj9nw

  • [email protected]

    From your own link:


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    Jed Rothwell is currently indefinitely blocked by MastCell and he has not chosen to appeal the block. Given this he cannot be properly said to be banned. Blocks are not bans unless and until is has been demonstrated that no uninvolved administrator is willing to unblock. We have no way to know whether this is actually the case at this point in time.


    I guess you don't read your own links?


    If Jed makes claims as facts on Wikipedia like he does here, then I can see why he'd be a pain in the ass over there. They actually have rules. They can be overly picky but most of the rules make sense.

  • But, NOW we are informed by the Brethren, that Rossi's grand ingenious plot all along was simply to get his Water Heater IP back, and be free to work on the QuackX.

    You are really biased, you transform things so they can fit with your distorted vision. It is obvious that when Rossi denounced IH he hoped to be able to get both the money and the IP, but over time he realized that it was safer to bet on one of the two because when it comes to dealing with a jury you can never be certain of the outcome even if you are right. It was Rossi's lawyer who asked him what was the most important for him, and he responded "the IP". Then the lawyer suggested the settlement because it was the safest way to get the IP. When you will see the first QuarkX on sale you will understand why the IP was worth more that the money... or maybe you will not understand it anyway, because people like you will continue to hate Rossi and say that the E-Cat doesn't work even when they will get one in their house that heats their bottom.

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    It was Rossi's lawyer who asked him what was the most important for him, and he responded "the IP".


    ROTFWL! The first most important thing for Rossi was to stay out of jail. That issue is pending and will be probably for years. The second most important things for Rossi were stopping the legal fee drain and keeping at least some of his Miami condos. Sadly, in that he succeeded.


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    or maybe you will not understand it anyway, because people like you will continue to hate Rossi and say that the E-Cat doesn't work even when they will get one in their house that heats their bottom.


    I am constantly amazed that there are still people here who can write things as weird, wrong, insane and bizarre as that.

  • As far as I know I am banned from all of Wikipedia. I was last time I checked, years ago. Anyway, I have a low opinion of Wikipedia based on the cold fusion article, and also on articles relating to early aviation and the Japanese language, which are two other subjects I have some expertise in.


    I would not contribute to Wikipedia even if they invited me. Someone there did once invite me. They had in mind splitting off a new article about the cold fusion controversy. The results were ludicrous, and hilarious. As quickly as I wrote, the "skeptics" erased what I was writing. It was like writing on an etch-a-sketch that someone shook every few minutes. After I saw this was happening, I recorded my entire contribution here on my disk, and then transferred it, knowing it would be erased a few minutes later. Here it is:


    http://pages.csam.montclair.ed…lski/cf/293wikipedia.html


    Here are some hilarious comments about Wikipedia by other authors:


    https://www.wired.com/2006/04/the-wikipedia-faqk/


    http://www.chronicle.com/artic…eight-of-Truth-on/130704/


    http://wikipediocracy.com/

  • I read the wikipedia war when it happened several years ago. You are simply allowing someone who has the energy to troll to have the upper hand in disingenuity, like playing liars dice against a cheating magician. I can see that you're a pain in the ass everywhere I have encountered you when discussing LENR, such as how you've been banned at Vortex.

  • Here are some hilarious comments about Wikipedia by other authors:


    https://www.wired.com/2006/04/the-wikipedia-faqk/

    From the article,

    Is it true that anyone can contribute?

    Sure, Wikipedia is absolutely open to absolutely anyone contributing to absolutely anything! As long as you haven't been banned, or the article you're contributing to hasn't been locked, or there isn't a group of people waiting to delete anything you write, or you don't make the same change more than three times in one day, or the subject of the article hasn't decided to send scary lawyer letters to Wikipedia,


    Pertinent to the subject at hand, the Wikipedia page for Andrea Rossi was drastically changed because Rossi came into some money a few years back and threatened to sue Wikipedia. His page has been far more stable since that time, and the difference between the slandered page and the stable page was really remarkable. Prior to the threat of lawsuit, there were all kinds of crimes that he had been said to be found guilty of, but by now it only came down to tax evasion which probably about half of those engaging in this forum would be guilty of. But one unusual fact did not survive the edit: That Rossi was accused of defrauding his investors but he was the only investor in Petroldragon, so he is one of maybe half a dozen people in history accused by authorities to be defrauding himself.

  • ROTFWL! The first most important thing for Rossi was to stay out of jail. That issue is pending and will be probably for years. The second most important things for Rossi were stopping the legal fee drain and keeping at least some of his Miami condos. Sadly, in that he succeeded.

    Oh silly little girl .... Rossi is the one who denounced IH for having not receiving the right compensation at the end of the test, a test that IH people have never said they didn't want (except when the time to pay has come). For no reason Rossi could end up in jail even if the process did not end with a settlement: this is just one of your recurring fantasies, your good night's thinking. As for legal fees, surely the hemorrhage of money for lawyers was more severe in IH's case. Rossi has accepted the settlement not because he didn't want to pay the lawyer further, but because he wanted to be sure that he could retrieve the IP. In addition to that he also managed to keep the 1 MW plant and the money raised for having previously sold the IP. Now he has everything he needs and is free from any constraint with IH ... undoubtedly a win, that's the reason why you can't accept it.

  • ROTFWL! The first most important thing for Rossi was to stay out of jail. That issue is pending and will be probably for years. The second most important things for Rossi were stopping the legal fee drain and keeping at least some of his Miami condos. Sadly, in that he succeeded.

    am constantly amazed that there are still people here who can write things as weird, wrong, insane and bizarre as that.

    If that was the "first most important thing" for Rossi then he never would have brought suit in the first place. The fact that all that data was entered into the docket, ready and juicy and waiting for the right criminal authority to come along and lock him up... well it's proof that Rossi is NOT a fraud because it has not happened yet. The burden of proof for civil court is "preponderance of the evidence", which IH couldn't even meet when they accused Rossi of Fraud. Therefore, the higher burden of proof in criminal court, "beyond a reasonable doubt" aint gonna happen with the given evidence. It is legal PROOF that Rossi isn't a fraud. Realizing that this sticks in your craw, perhaps you should just refrain from claiming such bullshit as "the first most important thing for Rossi".

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    For the record, I do not think Mary Yugo should have been banned from Vortex.

    Thanks. I had a run in with "Master Beatty" as I am wont to call him. He much prefers fancy to reality. I am not sure what "sneering" even means in a forum context.

    For the record, I do not think you should have been banned from Wikipedia. If they have dissenting opinions, and they are supported to Wikipedia norms, they should simply include them. They often seem not to do well with contested issues. But Wikipedia is still an extremely useful, if to be used with lots of caution, reference. The Internet seems to have put the encyclopedia business out to pasture permanently and maybe Wikipedia had a lot to do with it.

  • @ Shane D.

    However, try as we may to put Rossi behind us, I think he is going to be the center of attention for a long time to come.

    That's will be true for the common people as long as will last the public debate on LENR. But what I meant is that, in order to understand the essence of this story, the Ecat should be kept distinguished from Rossi, and that addressing his oldest initiatives, as well as the last RvD litigation, is not very helpful, and sometimes it appears intentionally misleading. The Ecat has been the natural outcome of the CF history, not of Rossi's.


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    Not because of Doral, as that was an obvious ruse, but because questions still remain as to his early years with Focardi.

    Yes, exactly, many questions remain about the early years of this last CF adventure, even before the involvement of Focardi. But, are we sure that all this Ecat affair started with Rossi? Krivit keeps on his site a very interesting page titled: Chronology and Dramatis Personae in Andrea Rossi's Confidence Game. The first 4 personae are the JoNP spokesman and 3 members of its Board of Advisers, but, in accordance to the more recent revelations, they are not listed in the right chronological order. First question: what should be the right sequence?


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    Also, the first Hotcat test in Ferrara has so far stood up against the critiques.

    IMO the main critique to that report is that its lead author issued also the calorimetric report on January 2011 demo. That should suffice.


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    And one can not help but wonder if IH did get a little something in a few of their attempts. After all, even Dameron told the Boeing guy (Childress) that he saw something interesting.

    Something? Uhm ... very similar to "It -- the results were there looked like there was something going on."


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    Then there are the possible replications of the Hotcat by AP and Songsheng, […] me356 […] MFMP […]

    I guess they are only replications of Ecat-like demonstrations.


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    So yeah, we can talk about whether or not LENR is real, but Rossi is not going anywhere. By the time we are done with him, he will be a legend...if not already. Just the way he wants it.

    Yes, he is already a legend, and he wants it. Maybe he has been predestined to this role. Who knows? But if you want understand a legend, you have to look at its foundation.

  • well it's proof that Rossi is NOT a fraud because it [criminal charges file] has not happened yet.

    I see in the business section of the news that white collar criminal cases are sometimes filed years after the crimes are committed. The fact that charges have not been filed yet may have no meaning. There is a backlog of cases, especially in Florida, the national epicenter of fraud.

  • You are really biased, you transform things so they can fit with your distorted vision. It is obvious that when Rossi denounced IH he hoped to be able to get both the money and the IP, but over time he realized that it was safer to bet on one of the two because when it comes to dealing with a jury you can never be certain of the outcome even if you are right. It was Rossi's lawyer who asked him what was the most important for him, and he responded "the IP". Then the lawyer suggested the settlement because it was the safest way to get the IP. When you will see the first QuarkX on sale you will understand why the IP was worth more that the money... or maybe you will not understand it anyway, because people like you will continue to hate Rossi and say that the E-Cat doesn't work even when they will get one in their house that heats their bottom.

    Naa, I don't hate Rossi, at this point I find his and his Brethren's escapades quite amusing, better than anything on television (Wizard of OZ, Bernie Madoff Story, etc), and I look forward to the QuackX Episode, replete with its Rube Rossiburg "reactors", contaminated scrap plumbing, toggleclamps, heaters, arc-lamps, etc. and all the "analytical" instrumentation spitting out readings of astronomical COP's, with the Wizard, errr Rossi, pulling all the levers and pushing all the buttons....can't wait!!!!! (Albeit I probably wouldn't be so amused (I am however admittedly somewhat jealous, knowing what real innovators go thru to finance legitimate ventures) if I was the one that handed over $11M to him.....). An EDog may indeed heat one's bottom, but only with a COP<1.

  • Ascoli,


    Gosh, I agree with most of what you say. The one exception is the "arrangement of JONP's BOD's not being in chronological order", and your assigning some significance to that. I doubt there is any meaning there, other than Rossi is as sloppy creating a website, as he is in his demos. And I surely do not think any on JONP's BODs had anything to do with Rossi's scam. Or the fact that some are affiliated with the government, means there is some conspiracy. In fact, as you already know, Melich's (JONP BOD, and government affiliated scientist) wife wrote that article in her Infinite Energy Magazine when the lawsuit story broke, that "Rossi, enjoyed your company, nice guy, but you are not good for LENR and do not let the door hit you in the ass on your way out".


    Another minor note: I agree with what you said about Levi being the author of the first HT report in Ferrara. Although Ferrara has survived scrutiny so far as I said, that does not in my mind dismiss the fact that Levi was it's main author, and his role in this affair is still very much in the air.

  • @ShaneD


    Nothing happened with Focardi except that the poor, elderly, kindly gentleman with an illustrious past of teaching and research was roundly bamboozled, flummoxed and deceived by Rossi. Rossi is a conscienceless sociopath but perhaps that is the nastiest thing he did. I hope Focardi believed in Rossi to the end and died happy at least, thinking that Ni-H fusion was real.

  • @ShaneD


    Nothing happened with Focardi except that the poor, elderly, kindly gentleman with an illustrious past of teaching and research was roundly bamboozled, flummoxed and deceived by Rossi. Rossi is a conscienceless sociopath but perhaps that is the nastiest thing he did. I hope Focardi believed in Rossi to the end and died happy at least, thinking that Ni-H fusion was real.

    Hey Mary: Can you please compile a list of all the people that Rossi bamboozled, especially the highly trained scientists? All those people with reality distortion fields is going to make such an amazing accomplishment for the most ingenius scam artist, ever.

  • That was a tally by Britz, not me. It was made in the mid to late 1980s.


    What on earth are you talking about? You can't tally replications before the experiment being replicated has been performed.


    I was referring to a paper dated 2009, entitled "Tally of Cold Fusion Papers", for which you (Jed Rothwell) are listed as the only author. Britz's database is one of the sources, but so is your lenr-canr database. In that paper, there is a topic "Positive, peer-reviewed excess heat papers culled from both databases", which is presumably a superset of refereed replications of P&F. The description says "The titles are culled from both [databases]", so it was you doing the tallying, not Britz, even if you used his database. And the complete list of 153 papers is given in an appendix, and it includes a paper by Arata in 2008, so it clearly post-dates Storms' table 2, published in 2004, which you claimed represents 180 "highly reputable university and government labs" that replicated P&F.


    Furthermore, according to your own paper, the list of 153 refereed papers represents only 51 different affiliations, and not all of those are universities or government labs, since they include e.g. BlackLight Power, Toyota's IMRA, and Swartz's JET Energy.


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    Not all of the 180 institutions published papers in the peer-reviewed literature.


    Yes, that's what I argued, and that's what doesn't make sense. A highly reputable university or government lab that claims replication of cold fusion would not be reputable if it didn't publish.


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    There were 180 institutions in Table 2. I counted them long ago.


    You may have counted them, but I don't believe you got to 180:


    1. There are only about 180 entries, and Miles accounts for 9 of them, Zhang and Arata another 9, Eagleton and Bush for 7. There are at least 7 other authors (or author groups) with 5 or more entries, and 28 others with 2 to 5. Now some entries may represent more than one affiliation, but there is no way to make up for the multiple entries from many institutions. This is obvious when you consider the following...


    2. All but about 45 of the authors listed in Storms table are accounted for in your list of principal authors responsible for the excess heat papers you tallied. The overlap is probably even stronger since Storms lists first author (and 2nd if there are only 2), and not necessarily principal author. And your list corresponds to 51 affiliations. So, that means the remaining 45 authors would have to account for 129 additional affiliations.


    So, it's clear from your own writing that 180 affiliations is not justifiable, let alone 180 highly reputable university and government institutions.


    Such a cavalier misrepresentation of the contents of your own paper kind of destroys your credibility with respect to the rest of the cold fusion literature. Of course, in the Trump era, dishonesty seems to win a loyal following.

  • I wrote: Instead, the number of groups actively investigating cold fusion now is a small fraction of 180, which means most of those labs have abandoned the field, many without publishing, and for a phenomenon with the importance of cold fusion, that is inconceivable unless the scientists came to realize the effect was not real.No, the funding dried up and scientists moved on to other projects where they could get paid.


    No, the funding dried up and scientists moved on to other projects where they could get paid.



    Funding from respectable sources (like DOE) dried up because the claims did not withstand scrutiny. The claims did not fail to persuade the world because funding dried up.


    Indeed, funding did not dry up. Storms estimates $500M has been spent on the field. P&F got something like $50M from Toyota, about 500 times what they claimed was needed to make the claim in the first place. EPRI funded McKubre, and governments in India, Italy, and Japan continued to fund cold fusion for a long time. Moreover, the incredible potential of cold fusion, were it real, has attracted private funding from the likes of Sidney Kimmel, and lately Bill Gates (allegedly), Karl Page, and Darden and co. The truth is, it is far easier to attract funds in cold fusion (or hydrinos) than in most fields considered legitimate in mainstream science. The likes of Godes, Dardik, Mills, and Rossi would have no chance with peer reviewed funding agencies, and all have attracted millions from private investment.


    No, the statement stands: It is inconceivable that reputable institutes would abandon a field like cold fusion unless the scientists believed the likelihood that the phenomenon was real was vanishingly small.



    I wrote: Surely, if this claim of 180 (or 90) reputable university labs having replicated cold fusion held water, there would have been no need for the formation of the MFMP whose first aim is to identify an experiment that can be replicated by university labs.


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    Kevmo: MFMP is aiming to identify an experiment that almost anyone can replicate, not just university labs.


    According to their web site, their "goal is to facilitate the wide-spread replication and validation of New Fire experiments, such as Francesco Celani's, at reputable research institutions around the world."


    So, I repeat, if 180 reputable institutes had replicated in a credible way, MFMP would be superfluous.


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    Kevmo: Because people like you don't think that the top hundred electrochemists in the world are acceptable.


    I don't even know who the top 100 electrochemists are, but if you provide a list, and they all claim cold fusion is real, I'll consider it.


    But you're probably right. I base my evaluation of the field on the quality of the published claims, and they fail to persuade.


    But if I were to base my view of the field on authority, I would put more weight on the thousands of top nuclear physicists who are all but certain it's bunk, than on 100 unnamed electrochemists.

  • I'm going to respond at my original thread on this topic


    How many times has the Pons-Fleischmann Anomalous Heating Event been replicated in peer reviewed journals?