Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

  • High percentage? That's a new claim. I call bullshit.

    I have read extensively on this subject. The wiki article was about how P&F completely failed despite being gifted 10's of millions of dollars. I stand by my assertion that all LENR/CF claims, if subjected to the very highest, most exacting standards, will fail just as the top ones are doing under IH's scrutiny. People are overlooking the dozens of different failure modes that could be responsible for each of these claims. Also, as the P&F debacle showed, it is very expensive to refute these claims. Why would people continue to spend millions of dollars of scarce research money to continue to refute these claims which always fail when under expert review? Just because people don't waste resources to analyze these claims anymore doesn't make them real. Assuming it does is faulty logic.

  • 1. Over 180 highly reputable universities and government labs replicated, as shown in Storms Table 2.


    This sounds like a Trumpian exaggeration. Table 2 shows no such thing. There are over 180 entries in the table, but many are from the same authors at the same institutes. I didn't take the time to look up the institutes, but just from first (and some second) authors, there appear to be less than half that many *institutes* involved. I suspect further investigation would reveal considerably fewer institutes involved. And also that some are not highly reputable (Energetics e.g., which was neither a govt nor university lab).


    It's not that 90 institutes isn't impressive, but if you feel the need to lie to support your case, one wonders if it's because you don't think the truth is good enough.


    And you would know that 180 reputable institutes is not plausible, because the table was compiled in 2004, and in 2009 you tallied excess heat claims and came up with 153 papers in the refereed literature, which also contained multiple papers from some authors. That would mean many reputable govt or university labs replicated cold fusion and did not publish in a refereed journal, which is not plausible.


    Furthermore, the list reflects claims of excess heat in metal hydrides, not strict "replications" of P&F, which would involve electrolysis of palladium in D2O. This list includes claims with excess heat in Ni with light hydrogen, and using methods other than electrolysis.


    Finally, if true, decade-old claims of replications by 180 reputable labs would weaken the case for cold fusion to the breaking point. If the evidence they claimed were believed by trained scientists, there would be thousands of replications by now.


    Instead, the number of groups actively investigating cold fusion now is a small fraction of 180, which means most of those labs have abandoned the field, many without publishing, and for a phenomenon with the importance of cold fusion, that is inconceivable unless the scientists came to realize the effect was not real.


    And for 180 reputable labs investigating a phenomenon, it seems implausible that no significant progress has been made. There is no consistent and quantitative reproducibility, no controlled parameter with which the effect scales in any predictable way, no agreement on a conceivable reaction, and no good evidence for nuclear reaction products. The only thing the community agrees upon is a vague indication of excess heat. This situation is far and away most consistent with pathological science.


    Surely, if this claim of 180 (or 90) reputable university labs having replicated cold fusion held water, there would have been no need for the formation of the MFMP whose first aim is to identify an experiment that can be replicated by university labs.

  • if subjected to the very highest, most exacting standards,

    LENR is the only science subjected to such high and exacting standards. If those standards were applied to High Temperature Superconductors we'd only be 2 degrees above absolute zero. If it were applied to Dolly the sheep, all you guys would be calling for those clone claimants to be in jail. And applying such standards to semiconductors would have pushed us back to the days where we could only fit a hundred onto a square inch. When the top hundred electrochemists replicated the PF Anomalous Heat Event, it became established science but skeptopaths simply don't like it.

  • Instead, the number of groups actively investigating cold fusion now is a small fraction of 180, which means most of those labs have abandoned the field, many without publishing, and for a phenomenon with the importance of cold fusion, that is inconceivable unless the scientists came to realize the effect was not real.

    No, the funding dried up and scientists moved on to other projects where they could get paid.


    Quote

    Surely, if this claim of 180 (or 90) reputable university labs having replicated cold fusion held water, there would have been no need for the formation of the MFMP whose first aim is to identify an experiment that can be replicated by university labs.

    MFMP is aiming to identify an experiment that almost anyone can replicate, not just university labs. Because people like you don't think that the top hundred electrochemists in the world are acceptable.

  • In the interview I mentioned, Rossi tells that he can now enter the Doral Plant again and analyze the reactors that have been turn off since 2016. If you read what I reported, you can see that Rossi speaks about the small E-Cat units and says that they have stopped working almost immediately but he still doesn't know the reason why:

    "The big ones that worked pretty well, and the small ones that never worked, because at the beginning they had many problems. [...]In the small ones it will be very interesting to understand now why the heck they did not work, as if in some of them there was simply no charge."

    I don't know if Rossi ever complained before about their failure ... but what does it matter? The plant consisted of 4 250kW reactors and 52 20kW reactors, so it was perfectly able to operate (producing 1 MW) even with the small reactors out of order. So what is your point?


    The point is that Rossi never said that he pulled the small E-Cats offline because they failed to produce excess heat. There is no sign at all that he was able to distinguish between the small E-Cats and the Big Frankies in terms of their ability to produce power. The small units appear to have been pulled out for other reasons (according to the log kept by Fabiani and according to the testimony of Barry West). But when the small units were pulled so were their pumps. And that drastically reduced the overall number of operating pumps in the plant from about 60 down to 24. The ability of these remaining pumps to move the quantity of water associated with 1 MW heat production is questionable.


    Your contention that the Big Frankies were able to handle 1 MW all by themselves is likewise dubious. In its original configuration the whole plant with its 113 reactors (1 in each small E-Cat and about 15 in each Big Frankie) would have only only required COP of about 100 to reach 1 MW production. The magical increase to COP = 200 was necessitated by the removal of all the small E-Cats early on. This is suspicious in itself. Rossi's childish reasoning regarding how this increase in COP came about is even more suspicious.

  • There were plumbing issues everyday when that monstrosity was fired up. Barry told a story of Rossi firing the plumber because he kept having to come back, unable to get a handle on the all leaks.

    One must ponder if the shutdown of the small units early in the process was related?

  • And you would know that 180 reputable institutes is not plausible, because the table was compiled in 2004, and in 2009 you tallied excess heat claims and came up with 153 papers in the refereed literature . . .

    That was a tally by Britz, not me. It was made in the mid to late 1980s.


    Not all of the 180 institutions published papers in the peer-reviewed literature.


    There were 180 institutions in Table 2. I counted them long ago.

  • There were plumbing issues everyday when that monstrosity was fired up. Barry told a story of Rossi firing the plumber because he kept having to come back, unable to get a handle on the all leaks.

    One must ponder if the shutdown of the small units early in the process was related?


    One of the court documents (beginning of 207-55) contains a typewritten log which I think was maintained by Fabiani (although it could be Rossi too). It records twice-daily energy absorption values for the E-Cat plant together with occasional comments on events. On Feb 18 2015 - the third and final day of Penon's first site visit - the comment is "TUTTO IL SISTEMA ON" [ALL SYSTEMS ON! Capitals in the original]. The next morning at 10:30AM, after Penon has left, we see "Perdita idrauliche nella parte singoli moduli" [Hydraulic losses in the individual module parts]. And then that evening at 10:30PM we get "Off 6 gruppi singoli moduli" [Off 6 groups of single modules].


    Here you see recorded the permanent shutdown of the small E-Cats. It happened the day after Penon left the facility. The reason given is water leaks. This could just be a cover, though, There is a possibility that Rossi wanted these units out of the picture for other reasons and chose leaks (which could be purposely created) as the right excuse. One possible reason for wanting the small E-Cats out of the way is that many of their fuel charges had been prepared by IH personnel when he (Rossi) wasn't on site. He might have been nervous that IH had intentionally introduced some control charges.

  • Quote

    Finally, if true, decade-old claims of replications by 180 reputable labs would weaken the case for cold fusion to the breaking point. If the evidence they claimed were believed by trained scientists, there would be thousands of replications by now.


    Instead, the number of groups actively investigating cold fusion now is a small fraction of 180, which means most of those labs have abandoned the field, many without publishing, and for a phenomenon with the importance of cold fusion, that is inconceivable unless the scientists came to realize the effect was not real.

    Exactly. That is how the real world works. Nobody give up the potential for endless cheap power if the experiments show serious promise. That's why I keep insisting on seeing the 100W out and no power in and the long run. But I never seem to find it. Strange.

  • Wikipedia is an incredibly biased source to be quoting from.

    Wikipedia is open to collaboration. If you don't agree just participate to the discussion and correct the article providing documents that sustain your thesis.

    Wikipedia has also strict policy on copyright (your article must be original).

    So is the best result of Internet Common and Open collaboration.

  • Wikipedia is open to collaboration. If you don't agree just participate to the discussion and correct the article providing documents that sustain your thesis.

    Wikipedia has also strict policy on copyright (your article must be original).

    So is the best result of Internet Common and Open collaboration.


    ROFL!!

  • That's why I keep insisting on seeing the 100W out and no power in and the long run. But I never seem to find it. Strange.

    Mary there are many evidences...... I understand you don't want to see

    but what you think about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widom-Larsen_theory and their company http://www.lenrnews.eu/lattice…rcraft-and-other-systems/

    As far as I remember they also were in contact with Darden.

  • Quote

    Mary there are many evidences...... I understand you don't want to see

    but what you think about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widom-Larsen_theory and their company http://www.lenrnews.eu/lattice…rcraft-and-other-systems/

    As far as I remember they also were in contact with Darden.


    Widom and Larsen have a theory, ele, not a device. They don't produce any power at all except with their pens and their jaws. And the theory is not very popular with scientists who should know. I am not one of them. I know nothing about it.

  • @ Bob,


    I answer you here because the subject has nothing to do with the pump issue.

    When will supporters ever have actual support from Rossi himself, instead of having to defend him with conjecture?


    Sorry, but I'm not interested in the debate pro/cons Rossi, especially with respect to IH. The recent RvD litigation led to the polarization of the LENR debate around this diatribe, but it looks to me a pantomime, because both parts are supporting, one way or another, the validity of LENR, whereas, IMO, the real debate should be about the reality of CF/LENR as a whole.

    • Official Post

    Sorry, but I'm not interested in the debate pro/cons Rossi, especially with respect to IH. The recent RvD litigation led to the polarization of the LENR debate around this diatribe, but it looks to me a pantomime, because both parts are supporting, one way or another, the validity of LENR, whereas, IMO, the real debate should be about the reality of CF/LENR as a whole.


    Ascoli,


    Good points. However, try as we may to put Rossi behind us, I think he is going to be the center of attention for a long time to come. Not because of Doral, as that was an obvious ruse, but because questions still remain as to his early years with Focardi. Also, the first Hotcat test in Ferrara has so far stood up against the critiques. And one can not help but wonder if IH did get a little something in a few of their attempts. After all, even Dameron told the Boeing guy (Childress) that he saw something interesting.


    Then there are the possible replications of the Hotcat by AP and Songsheng, and both are still actively refining, and reporting. Every time they report, Rossi comes back into focus. And me356's Hotcat type reactor, while a bust, did provide fuel ash samples that may help MFMP unravel a piece of the puzzle. And let us not forget MFMP, which formed to replicate Rossi's Hotcat. As long as they are at it, Rossi is in the picture.


    Got to admit that Rossi has spawned many offspring ...and yet he still has not proven a damn thing! The guy is that good. So yeah, we can talk about whether or not LENR is real, but Rossi is not going anywhere. By the time we are done with him, he will be a legend...if not already. Just the way he wants it. :)