The chart shows that when power demand in Texas surges (the black line), wind generation (green line) often goes to Cancun with Ted Cruz. Indeed, when power demand zigs, wind production usually zags. That’s what happened during the middle of the day on July 13.
No wind = hot day... That is why solar is a must for any air condition you install.
After 30 seconds of thought - obvious ways to solve this problem include;
* Rely less on wind and more on gas and/or nuclear and/or solar.
Not too solid. The 2021 Texas blackout was caused by failures in natural gas and nuclear generators. Wind was more reliable than these two. Natural gas and nuke can be upgraded to survive extreme cold, as they are in northern states. Perhaps they should be in Texas.
JedRothwell just responding to the graph showing the energy from wind dropping when demand was high.
Clearly a mix is needed and clearly what they have is not the right mix.
I am not against nuclear per se but it takes a lot of time to get a nuclear plant up and running.
I have heard that nuclear is possibly the most expensive way to produce energy (Sabine Hossenfelder on YouTube) but I would have thought one of the advantages is that at least nuclear should be pretty reliable.
There was a guy on YouTube the other day saying how nuclear was so much safer compared to fatalities from wind or solar energy (falling off roofs, pollution etc). Also bird deaths.
My thoughts were, "Yeah, ok, nuclear had a lot of money and had its chance and people don't forget 3-Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima so good luck selling that!"
Nonetheless there are many nuclear power stations around Europe and the USA that have run fine for decades and produced power reliably so it is an option that needs consideration.
Possibly there are some areas, or countries, where nuclear makes good sense.
Transitioning to wind or solar is very desirable but needs to be part of a mix and needs some kind of battery storage to smooth out the demand on the grid.
Many countries, such as the UK, still rely heavily on gas and will do for some time, although there is talk of putting hydrogen into the gas pipes.
Of course if we get LENR energy then that should solve most of the problems and kill standard nuclear for good. 
I am not against nuclear per se but it takes a lot of time to get a nuclear plant up and running.
Time and money. You should read about the Vogtle plants under construction in Georgia. They were supposed to be finished in 2016 and they were supposed to cost $16 billion. Still not finished and the cost is over $30 billion.
I have heard that nuclear is possibly the most expensive way to produce energy (Sabine Hossenfelder on YouTube) but I would have thought one of the advantages is that at least nuclear should be pretty reliable.
Nuclear used to be the cheapest source of electricity. The Fukushima accident made into the most expensive source by far, bankrupting TEPCO, the world's largest power company. One accident is all it took. It resembles the Concorde supersonic passenger airplane. That was the safest modern airplane until July 2000. No one was ever hurt or killed on a Concorde. Then one of them exploded on takeoff, killing everyone, and it instantly became the most dangerous modern airplane.
Fukushima, and before that Rancho Seco, Three Mile Island, Connecticut Yankee and other accidents showed that nuclear is not reliable. It is brittle. It goes from being utterly reliable to being a nuclear waste dump after an accident or negligent operation, as state attorney general described Connecticut Yankee. It is also not reliable because when there is a problem, the entire plant shuts down almost instantly, in a SCRAM. You lose ~1 GW. A problem at a gas fired plant may shut down 200 MW. A problem with a wind farm may shut down 1 MW, unless it is a storm, which can be predicted days ahead of time.
Transitioning to wind or solar is very desirable but needs to be part of a mix and needs some kind of battery storage to smooth out the demand on the grid.
Yes, it probably does need battery storage, which makes the cost much higher. Solar is a great way to meet peak demand in a hot place like Atlanta, but once you get above a certain percent of generation capacity it starts to need batteries, which increases the cost a lot. As you say, with today's technology we need a mix of different sources.
At the present percent of capacity, solar can easily be augmented by natural gas, so there is no need for batteries. When it is cloudy or night, you use natural gas. When the sun shines, the gas turbine is turned down or shut off, and the power company saves money. No batteries needed, as long as there is abundant gas turbine capacity, or hydroelectricity, or even wind.
Water impoundment is the best way to cover those peak demand requirements, but it won't work everywhere. Texas and Florida for example.
A wind farm of twelve windmills is proposed for the next township south of me. The nearest mill would be about 5 miles away. No big deal to me.
I mentioned the old steel dam at Redridge. Well, replace the old dam and reestablish the impoundment. Pump water from Lake Superior during high wind events and cover peake demand during no wind to the extent possible. What's neat about the site is it's right on the lake and still pretty wild. They say that is the most cost effective way to provide for the extra power.
NIMBY is alive and well. On the 2nd of August
we get to vote for or against a planning commission to try stop the windmills in our township. Call that a land grab. They claim our township could support 359 windmills. Yeah, sure.
Yes, it probably does need battery storage, which makes the cost much higher. Solar is a great way to meet peak demand in a hot place like Atlanta, but once you get above a certain percent of generation capacity it starts to need batteries, which increases the cost a lot. As you say, with today's technology we need a mix of different sources.
At the present percent of capacity, solar can easily be augmented by natural gas, so there is no need for batteries. When it is cloudy or night, you use natural gas. When the sun shines, the gas turbine is turned down or shut off, and the power company saves money. No batteries needed, as long as there is abundant gas turbine capacity, or hydroelectricity, or even wind.
>> generation capacity it starts to need batteries,
I'm wondering about this batteries in all electric cars if now everyone had one. Maybe that resource is too tiny. In Sweden we have 40% hydro in the power mix. So one can use hydro as well to control.
* The Rolls-Royce modular reactors are a fantasy dream at the moment. They have not even built one. If they work then fine, but it is a big gamble.
They are based on the design used for nuclear submarines, so in that context they are well understood.
CMNS energy technologies will achieve market saturation quickly. Faster than any other green technology. Driven mainly by a strong economic imperative, rather than just an environmental imperative. These folks, Eco Inventions, have a few good ideas to help speed the transition. They entered a contest at MIT last year. Not very impressive. Only Leonardo Corporation and Brillouin Energy Corporation are mentioned. Still, I found it interesting.
From
MIT CCI
Your use of the MIT Center for Collective Intelligence Climate CoLab is subject to our Creative Commons License, Privacy Statement, and other Terms of Use.
Link
Contests
Industry Workspace 2021
Proposal: Mass integration of LENR systems for all industrial heat applications
Pitch
Take advantage of carbon neutral industrial heat for manufacturing, which is now for sale from The Leonardo Corp E-cat SK LENR system
Summary
Industrial heat from LENR (low energy nuclear reactions) became available in early 2019.
LENR systems do not emit and harmful radiation or use radioactive fuels and if the reactor gets too hot, the nickel melts and the reaction stops very fast.
Dr. Andrea Rossi invented several LENR systems, and industrial heat from his latest system the E-Cat SK is available today.
Dr. Andrea Rossi is using a new approach to bringing the E-Cat SK to market, rather than gaining acceptance from the peer review process, Dr. Rossi is selling industrial heat directly to customers and counting on their reviews of the performance of his LENR systems.
Dr. Rossi is taking a different approach for security of his invention, but please remember the Leonardo corporation is only selling the industrial heat that they produce.
If The E-Cat SK does not work there would be no costs involved, or profits for Leonardo Corp.
The E-cat has been validated by some of the top scientists we have, who risked their reputations to validate a very controversial Black Swan technology.
The E-Cat underwent a 32 hour test followed by 350 day evaluation and passed with great success.
The E-Cat SK is a 22 kW modular system which uses nickel and two types of lithium and a tiny amount of hydrogen in a patented pill form.
Some scientists say the World may never run out of fuel for LENR systems, others say a billion years is possible, time will tell, if mankind survives that long.
Industrial heat is one of the largest emitters of Co2 emissions.
By implementing industrial heat from LENR into manufacturing; Co2 emissions can be reduced very fast.
Mass integration of LENR systems for all industrial heat applications by Eco Inventions
I'm wondering about this batteries in all electric cars if now everyone had one. Maybe that resource is too tiny. In Sweden we have 40% hydro in the power mix. So one can use hydro as well to control.
There has been some discussion of using electric cars as storage batteries. On nights with lots of wind they can store up electricity and then . . . I guess if the wind drops, they discharge some of it to power the house? I don't know how it would work. I don't think that is a good idea. However, there is a related idea that probably will work. Take a city with 10,000 electric cars plugged in to chargers on a given night. If the houses have smart meters, when wind picks up, the power company can remotely turn on the chargers. When wind drops to low levels, the power company turns off the meters. You might say the 10,000 cars are acting as a giant buffer so that electricity is not wasted, and the wind turbines do not have to be throttled (feathered).
NIMBY is alive and well. On the 2nd of August
we get to vote for or against a planning commission to try stop the windmills in our township. Call that a land grab. They claim our township could support 359 windmills. Yeah, sure.
I bet the people who own land where the wind turbines will be erected are strongly in favor of them. The power company pays them a lot of money! This could set neighbor against neighbor.
How big is the township, in acres or square miles? 359 turbines is not a huge number nowadays.
The township parallels Lake Superior and is around 10 miles corner to corner, and maybe six miles wide. I live near the northeast corner and own property just beyond the west end in the next county over. Takes about an hour to drive to it. Townships are supposed to be six miles by six miles. Stanton township is maybe three times larger, and contains much wooded company land. The proposed windmills would be in Adams township to the south.
There has been some discussion of using electric cars as storage batteries. On nights with lots of wind they can store up electricity and then . . . I guess if the wind drops, they discharge some of it to power the house? I don't know how it would work. I don't think that is a good idea. However, there is a related idea that probably will work. Take a city with 10,000 electric cars plugged in to chargers on a given night. If the houses have smart meters, when wind picks up, the power company can remotely turn on the chargers. When wind drops to low levels, the power company turns off the meters. You might say the 10,000 cars are acting as a giant buffer so that electricity is not wasted, and the wind turbines do not have to be throttled (feathered).
Yep but the question is if the energy i significant in order to do what you suggest. My figures are that we can compensate with 20% of total energy in Sweden which would mean that we can increase the amount of wind power with 20%. If we used the whole battery that would mean more of cause.
In USA that's 28%
google: USA energy consumption statistic
The problem with wind turbines is one of equity. People have suffered now and in the past serious health problems from the effects of living near power stations and refineries. It is time that those who live alongside them were given a share of the proceeds.
Since wind turbines offer very little in terms of local jobs once the construction phase is over there is an even stronger case for changing the rules so that those who live in their shadow get a share of the proceeds -or maybe cheap energy- when they are built.
UK to become major player in the EV battery market.
|
The transition to electric vehicles will substantially increase the demand for batteries. Across Europe, there is a race to develop battery manufacturing factories to meet this demand. The UK is wellpositioned to be a major player in this market. By 2040, the Faraday Institution estimates that ten gigafactories will be needed in the UK, which could support 170,000 jobs in the automotive industry and a further 100,000 jobs in battery manufacturing and the wider battery supply chain.
About Faraday Insights
Our “Faraday Insights” provide an evidence-based assessment of the market, economics, technology and capabilities for energy storage technologies and the transition to a fully electric UK. The insights are concise briefings that aim to help bridge knowledge gaps across industry, academia and government. The publications are prepared by authors from across the Faraday Institution network and coordinated by Stephen Gifford, Chief Economist.
There has been some discussion of using electric cars as storage batteries. On nights with lots of wind they can store up electricity and then . . . I guess if the wind drops, they discharge some of it to power the house? I don't know how it would work. I don't think that is a good idea. However, there is a related idea that probably will work. Take a city with 10,000 electric cars plugged in to chargers on a given night. If the houses have smart meters, when wind picks up, the power company can remotely turn on the chargers. When wind drops to low levels, the power company turns off the meters. You might say the 10,000 cars are acting as a giant buffer so that electricity is not wasted, and the wind turbines do not have to be throttled (feathered).
Kinda like having your cake and eating it too. In another post you claim that wind power is so cheap, its free at night. So now you are saying that power companies can make money by controlling your smart charger? Even without the smart chargers/meters, the plugged in electric cars will simply be load on the grid, that they would be able to respond to do I don't see any additional utility to the method you are proposing.
Quite the opposite, Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute proposed the "supercar" concept where cars had access to NG hydrogen reformers and cars had fuel cells and then later the reformers could be replaced with green hydrogen and the many fuel cell powered cars could plug into the grid and sell electricity to the grid while the cars are idle so you get an income stream from your car. That plan has a lot more properly aligned incentives. In this way the cars which become a generating asset that are mostly sitting in the garage or parking lot unused 90% of the time, could replace the majority of the need for power plants.
A LENR version of this is a natural logical progression from RMI's initial supercar vision. LENR powered automobiles should be able to generate a few dozen kW. Much of this capacity will spend the majority of its time idle and underutilized. The LENR version has the advantage that we no longer need the hydrogen infrastructure. These cars can be plugged into the grid to sell excess electricity and your car will earn money while it sits in your garage and in your parking lot at work. IF we can make this vision a reality, humanity would experience true wealth and freedom for the first time in history.
Kinda like having your cake and eating it too. In another post you claim that wind power is so cheap, its free at night. So now you are saying that power companies can make money by controlling your smart charger?
They would not "make money" so much as save money. Reduce expenses. When there is a lot of wind, they turn on all chargers. When the wind drops off, they turn off some chargers. If they do not turn them off, they have to increase generation from gas turbines, and that costs more than wind.
This system has to be adjusted to meet customer expectations. We can't have a situation where the car owner wakes up and finds the car is not fully charged. Suppose it is 3 a.m. and weather prediction shows that there will not be enough wind that night to finish charging all cars. In that case, the computer would turn on the gas turbines and finish charging the cars at a higher cost to the power company.
Even without the smart chargers/meters, the plugged in electric cars will simply be load on the grid, that they would be able to respond to do I don't see any additional utility to the method you are proposing.
I hope I have explained it more clearly. It is a way of reducing electric power company expenses, and reducing pollution from gas turbine generation.
A LENR version of this is a natural logical progression from RMI's initial supercar vision. LENR powered automobiles should be able to generate a few dozen kW. Much of this capacity will spend the majority of its time idle and underutilized. The LENR version has the advantage that we no longer need the hydrogen infrastructure. These cars can be plugged into the grid to sell excess electricity and your car will earn money while it sits in your garage and in your parking lot at work.
There will be no grid for the cars to plug into. I do not think we will have a grid with LENR. It is much cheaper to have a generator at every house or building that needs one. I do not think LENR cars will power individual houses, because cars often have to go away, to the office or grocery store. You can't have the house electricity cut off while the car is not at home. We will need both a home generator and an on-board generator in the car.
I do not think we will ever have a hydrogen infrastructure.
Yep but the question is if the energy i significant in order to do what you suggest. My figures are that we can compensate with 20% of total energy in Sweden which would mean that we can increase the amount of wind power with 20%.
Years ago, experts predicted that ~20% is the high limit for wind power production. Above that it becomes uneconomical for the reasons you have outlined. You need batteries or standby power sources with natural gas. Batteries cost a lot, and building natural gas plants for occasional standby use only is uneconomical. I don't know how much you need to use them but I expect running them for a few hours a day would not be economical. Whereas a power company guy told me that running a standby 1 or 2 MW Diesel generator for a few hours a day is economical, because Diesel generators are so cheap.
The high limit varies depending on what other power sources you have. I think in places like the Pacific Northwest with abundant hydroelectricity can support a higher level of wind power, because they can always compensate when the wind drops off by opening up the dams more. Hydroelectricity is very flexible that way.
In Iowa they now produce 40% to 50% of electricity from wind. They do not have a battery infrastructure. I do not know how they work it, but I am guessing they can import or export power to the surrounding states that have a lot of natural gas generators.
Wind-powered Electric Generation in Iowa | Iowa Utilities Board
(This ends in 2019. I think they have reached ~50% lately.)
The whole business is very complicated. Cold fusion would greatly simplify it.
You may be right Jed. It would be a nice problem to have to decide the best way to use LENR. My point was I don't think cars would be good battery resources for the grid either but the other way "might" be more feasible.
The grid is not going to disappear overnight. People will likely find creative ways to use all that excess power. It will likely take decades to displace centralized power production. Producing a car that runs on LENR is not a great leap in technology. A factory could certainly buy that excess power from his employees' cars to produce something valuable by just plugging it in to the factory MDB.
The LENR future will likely belong to the more creative people as the entire structure of what are limits to growth will change dramatically.
Capacity factor of 29% for wind in Iowa is pretty amazing. It's interesting to note that Iowa seems to be a model example of implementing cheap wind power, yet electricity rates have continued on their long increase despite this massive increase of cheap wind power. It is possible those savings just haven't worked their way through the system yet (this table only goes up to 2018) but after checking current rates are 12.09 cents/kWh and commercial are 9.28 cents/kWh so again we find another reverse correlation between cheap wind power production and retail prices.
