LENR based on SO(4) physics model

  • This thread is created to discuss LENR suggestions to create LENR based on the SO(4) physics model.


    Wyttenbach suggested following structure to create LENR using this model:


    The ideal LENR sandwich structure would be a styrene or any other H*/D* promoting catalyst coated by a thin layer of Nickel. On top of the Nickel side you place your thick Hydrogen soaked Pd layer. If you use a thinner Pd layer then you can feed Hydrogen to the Pd side while the H*/D* promoting catalyst side is kept under low pressure.


    The only part missing in this receipt are the spices needed to transport the fusion energy!

  • Didn't Wyttenbach mention it the other way around .... better coat Pd with Ni .... ?


    In the case of a Mizuno implementation he did indeed. But Mizuno's concept does not contain an active catalyst by design (maybe by contamination).

    I also see the potential inconsistancy. That is why I created the drawing, so Wyttenbach can comment.


    Where is the activation energy (heat?) fed into system. In the Center?


    That is also what I would like to understand.

    H*/D* is formed at the contact area between catalyst and the nickel layer.

  • . In the Center?

    It could be.. there is nickel .. also Cr Fe Mn in the 316ss heater rod...


    but activation energy is a concept based on collisions that break bonds

    it may not apply..

    too much kinetic energy may disrupt the magnetic? catalytic structure..


    according to Mills the formation of dense hydrogen he calls H2(1/4) gives out ~490eV's


    ..which needs a 'resonant exchange.'. with a nearby atom or group of atoms...


    490 eV's is a significant amount of energy to get rid of..

  • Didn't Wyttenbach mention it the other way around .... better coat Pd with Ni .... ?


    When it comes to depositing fragments of one material on another it is not generally possible to determine which way around they are. We tend to thing that whichever has the largest mass is most important, but if you think about it, that is not necessarily a good way to judge. It's like asking 'is the butter stuck to the toast, or the toast stuck to the butter?

  • But Mizuno's concept does not contain an active catalyst by design (maybe by contamination).

    I also see the potential inconsistancy.


    Mizuno just by luck introduces calcite crystals that may act as a catalyst. But these crystals evaporate at higher temperatures and it just looks like you have only one single chance to start an efficient reaction. The calcination process is extensively used by Takahashi in his NiZrPdXYZ powders!


    The simpler your setup - just two metals as in Mizuno case - the more delicate is the balance between energy production and H*/D* proliferation. We see many Rossi like reactions that just show one big gamma bang and over!


    What SO(4) physics shows is that there is no "real" coulomb barrier. The true problem is to find a pathway to release the fusion energy. With the simple Mizuno setup you have only one mediating step that is D*-D* and a small set of gamma states. The bad thing about this: The reaction only runs optimally in a very narrow temperature band. IF you miss the startup point then it will take a very long time until you breed some isotopes that greatly boost the reaction.


    May be JedRothwell should ask Mizuno if the good - COP > 5 - reactor was based on a mesh that has been reused!

  • Facts, why I believe genuine nuclear reactions would have a negative feedback loop on the dense hydride formation that's supposed to make it easier. A possible way to get more excess energy would be to optimize for the gap... dense hydrides... instead of the core. These interesting hydrogen reactions still have "activation energy" because the barrier is the atoms own electrical resistance against condensation or close bonds. H2 has to be broken to atomic hydrogen, then stimulation involving free electrons is needed. Then the condensed H2 or transmuted compound formation needs an energy sink.

    This thread is created to discuss LENR suggestions to create LENR based on the SO(4) physics model.


    Wyttenbach suggested following structure to create LENR using this model:

    The setup with a thinner layer of hydrated Pd and pressure fed hydrogen seems like it would work much better! Sure the struggling trace fusion rate maybe lower but the H2 condensation rate and transmutation like events could be higher! where is the activation energy comming from? Electrical discharge hopefully of sufficient energetics?

  • The simpler your setup - just two metals as in Mizuno case - the more delicate is the balance between energy production and H*/D* proliferation. We see many Rossi like reactions that just show one big gamma bang and over!


    What SO(4) physics shows is that there is no "real" coulomb barrier. The true problem is to find a pathway to release the fusion energy. With the simple Mizuno setup you have only one mediating step that is D*-D* and a small set of gamma states. The bad thing about this: The reaction only runs optimally in a very narrow temperature band. IF you miss the startup point then it will take a very long time until you breed some isotopes that greatly boost the reaction.


    I think we both agree that H*/D* plays an important role in case Nickel is used.

    What are the fusion reactions that you anticipate?
    Do you think that similar effects take place like described by Holmlid, e.g. release of fast energetic particles, but that besides D-D and D-T fusions also transmutations of the present metals occur?


    The other observation that comes to mind is that Rossi seems to have already gone through all the hurdles the past 10 years you indicate.
    But now he seems to have a process running based on plasma(s) that at least is more controllable than using Nickel micrometer powders.

    Does a plasma form of LENR also fit into your SO(4) model and if so what are the main reactions you anticipate?


    Stability and controllability are important when it comes to reliable energy production (and certification).
    This is why I prefer the methods of Holmlid/Norront over methods that include the use of Nickel (or similar metals) in an all in one reaction environment.
    Holmlid/Norront split up muon production and fusion reactions:

    Muons are produced in a low pressure Protium environment.

    Fusion takes place in a separate high pressure Deuterium environment.

  • This is why I prefer the methods of Holmlid/Norront over methods that include the use of Nickel (or similar metals) in an all in one reaction environment.
    Holmlid/Norront split up muon production and fusion reactions:


    Muon catalyzed fusion has the same problems as ITER. To much Neutron load that cannot be controlled. Of course it would be easier to get a COP >1 but at what cost??

    Nevertheless it would still be much cheaper than ITER as no SC 4Kelvin cooled coils are needed and the containment could be solved by a brute force approach.


    But first the physics must be stable and the muons should all run to the same target...

    Does a plasma form of LENR also fit into your SO(4) model and if so what are the main reactions you anticipate?


    I personally have two favorite reactions.

    - The silver based SUN-CELL that had 1 minute self sustain run or the more sophisticated Russian solution call "Swirl flow" reactor.

    - The sonofusion Tee-Pot heater. This reaction can be downscaled to kitchen top and delivers heat almost instantaneously.

  • But first the physics must be stable and the muons should all run to the same target...


    Muon generators can be placed in the center of the pressurized Deuterium vessel:



    Of course this is a simplistic approach which probably need a bit more enginering, but this should be much better than the current MK1 powerplant proposal of Norront where 6 muon generators are place around a pressurized Deuterium vessel.


    I personally have two favorite reactions.

    - The silver based SUN-CELL that had 1 minute self sustain run or the more sophisticated Russian solution call "Swirl flow" reactor.

    - The sonofusion Tee-Pot heater. This reaction can be downscaled to kitchen top and delivers heat almost instantaneously.


    Interesting choices. Can you telll a bit more about your motivation?
    So, you see no options for LENR based on plasmas?

  • By the way it would be interesting to know if you Wyttenbachhave already constructed falsification test(s) for the SO(4)-theory.


    It does not work for my butter bread...

    Muon generators can be placed in the center of the pressurized Deuterium vessel:


    Really???

    How far must a kaon fly to produce a pion and afterwards a muon ??? And the pressured tank then must be huge and the cooling gigantic and where to you get the energy out of cooled Hydrogen ???


    This is just lab physics and not about energy production !!


    So, you see no options for LENR based on plasmas?


    Both I mentionned are plasma reactors !!

  • How far must a kaon fly to produce a pion and afterwards a muon ??? And the pressured tank then must be huge and the cooling gigantic and where to you get the energy out of cooled Hydrogen ???


    That is a valid point indeed. Something I forgot to take into account.
    I need to dig up some numbers to determine the minimum distance from the UDH source.


    B.t.w. shielding kaons must be easier than shielding muons.

    This might mean shielding muons that move towards undesired directions can be done easier by kaon shielding close to the UDH source.

  • I personally have two favorite reactions.

    - The silver based SUN-CELL that had 1 minute self sustain run or the more sophisticated Russian solution call "Swirl flow" reactor.

    - The sonofusion Tee-Pot heater. This reaction can be downscaled to kitchen top and delivers heat almost instantaneously.


    I tried to find a reference to the "sonofusion Teapot heater" here at the forum but could not find any. Do you have a good reference?