Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • Last powerfull Iwamura's release was made by only copper and nickel layers.

    Last data I have seen is from Iwamura's most recent published  patent application. This one provides data of various stacks including the one you mentioned.

    The ones with inclusion of CaO seem to show highest excess heat in that document (image 14).

    Maybe you have more recent data available?

  • Rob Woudenberg

    FYI, Piantelli has retired, due to advanced years and current poor health and the Niche lab is shut down and the contents passed on or sold.. End of an era.

    Yes, unfortunately.

    From the patent application data I notice that the ownership has been transferred to Alessandro Meiarini and Silvia Piantelli (probably his wife).

    • Official Post

    Yes, unfortunately.

    From the patent application data I notice that the ownership has been transferred to Alessandro Meiarini and Silvia Piantelli (probably his wife).

    Most likely daughter, in Italy as in Spain (and therefore also in Chile) the wife keeps their maiden name. It’s also likely Alessandro Meiarini is Piantelli’s son in law.

    Edit to add: I googled it and Silvia Piantelli is daughter of Francesco Piantelli.

  • Les dernières données que j'ai vues proviennent de la plus récente demande de brevet publiée par Iwamura . Celui-ci fournit des données de différentes piles, y compris celle que vous avez mentionnée.

    Ceux avec inclusion de CaO semblent montrer le plus grand excès de chaleur dans ce document (image 14).

    Peut-être avez-vous des données plus récentes disponibles?

  • Cydonia

    Ni and Cu only layers indeed also give excess heat (as the patent application examples also show).

    Likely the addition of alkali oxides increases the yield in excess heat, but not mandatory required to have excess heat.

    Your files unfortunately do not have a date reference, so it's not so clear whether at this moment Ni-Cu stacks give a better result.

  • I had made a summary from parts which seemed relevant to me in this Iwamura last patent.

    As stated inside, it is only a matter of alternating layers of copper and nickel.

    These files have been circulated everywhere ask the moderators, they will guide you.


    Ni and Cu only layers indeed also give excess heat (as the patent application examples also show).

    Likely the addition of alkali oxides increases the yield in excess heat, but not mandatory required to have excess heat.

    Your files unfortunately do not have a date reference, so it's not so clear whether Ni-Cu stacks give a better result.

  • We discussed the process of Mills earlier. Assuming that his hydrinos might be similar to UDH and the energy that is harvested is only the condensation energy of Hydrogen Rydberg matter, this would mean a possible accumulation of UDH.

    The question is whether there is indeed accumulation of UDH or that UDH is being destroyed by the high temperatures of the reactor (I recall Holmlid suggested that UDH may be destroyed by temperatures > 1000ºK at low gas pressures).

    Accumulation would be really dangerous due to the potential energy of UDH.

    If destruction of UDH is happening in Mills reactors, what would be the energy required to destroy UDH?

    And, to what will UDH be converted when destroyed?

    I don't recall any data on this from Holmlid's papers. Do you can ?

    Or, does Mills have a theory on this?

  • Stable UDH clusters (which have already dissipated their condensation energy) in theory should be only destroyed by incident radiation (photons—including thermal photons—and particles) with energy larger than a significant fraction of their bond energy, i.e. at least hundreds of eV, which translates to several millions K. This was also suggested in some papers, e.g. in https://link.springer.com/arti….1007%2Fs10509-019-3632-y :


    The stability of H(0) will be higher than for any other known material. Temperatures above the MK range are required to dissociate this material after it has been formed. Of course, fragmentation due to ionizing photons and fast particles will take place. When the energy density of the radiation field is lower than that corresponding to 1 MK, the ultra-dense hydrogen phase should be stable.

    In the latest paper on the catalysts it is suggested also that exposure to oxygen/oxidation at temperatures >1000 K and partial O2 pressure >10-5 mbar can also destroy such clusters (not temperature alone).


    H(0) with its bond energy of 500 eV [1] is the most stable condensed material that exists, so it remains for a very long time where it is formed until chemical or nuclear reactions can break it down. For example, endothermic oxidation processes at high temperature should be efficient for this. It is destroyed by its inherent spontaneous nuclear processes [9] and by the impact of charged particles and energetic photons. It is possible that all solid materials contain H(0) since it is so stable and forms so small molecules. Thus, experiments which indeed are able to detect H(0) may easily give a positive answer. The factor used in our experiments to destroy H(0) is high temperature, at least 1000 K, in an oxygen atmosphere at 10−5 mbar or higher.

    I think they would be converted back to regular hydrogen atoms. A similar process was suggested for the loosely-bound superfluid clusters above the superfluid transition temperature, in https://link.springer.com/arti….1007%2Fs10876-018-1480-5 :


    [...] In Fig. 3, the signal of the small clusters at 200–500 ns TOF does not increase with increasing temperature at the transition temperature. This shows that the long-chain clusters do not dissociate to small clusters rapidly but rather decompose to atoms or pairs of atoms which are primarily incorporated in the D(1) cluster structure which seems to increase at high temperature.

  • can

    In case UDH would be converted back to regular Hydrogen, this would mean excitation of the electrons to regular orbits.

    To have excess energy in the whole process cycle, there must be conversion of mass, otherwise there is another mystery going on.

  • can

    If my understanding is correct the RM<->UDH conversion is only reversible as long as condensation energy is not removed (harvested).

    I tend to believe there must be some accumulation of UDH in Mills's process therefore.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    I don't think that (so far) there have been deliberate suggestions that it takes less energy to convert stable UDH back to ordinary H than what is obtained from the initial condensation to UDH, if that is what you mean.

    If lower values than the bond energy of UDH clusters have been indicated for their destruction, that's probably due to a distribution of energies being assumed. In other words, converting UDH to H and then to UDH again should give zero net energy.

  • can

    I agree with you on this.

    The point I wanted to check is that Mills's process only can generate a surplus of energy if UDH is accumulated, assuming UDH and Hydrinos are the same matter.

    I wonder how dangerous that would be.

  • Randell Mills' energy production process is based on the energy given by Hydrino formation, which could be considered similar to the condensation energy given by UDH formation. I don't think that accumulation is expected or desired in his case, and the hydrinos produced are sometimes regarded as an inert byproduct, e.g.:

    About | Brilliant Light Power


    [...]The overall reaction is H2O to Hydrinos, oxygen, and power of extraordinary power density with emission resembling the light from the Sun, but at thousands of times the solar intensity at the Earth’s surface. The safe, nonpolluting products can be vented to atmosphere. Hydrino is lighter than air and cannot be contained in the atmosphere such that it is vented to space where it is currently observed in vast abundance (approximately 95% of the mass of the universe is comprised of dark matter or Hydrinos).


    The Hydrino molecular product is safe being inert and is also much lighter than air; so, there is a fast rate of its escaping to space after being released into the atmosphere.

    Or: IE 17_IE - V3#17 (infinite-energy.com)

    In principle the same condensation energy-generating process could be taken advantage for UDH too, if the production rate could be large enough. Holmlid et al pointed this out recently also in https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221 :


    It is possible to have an energy output by forming H(0) from hydrogen gas. This condensation energy will easily be believed to be non-chemical thus nuclear due to its size (of the order of hundred times larger than normal chemical energy output). It may be a large part of the energy which is considered to be caused by so-called cold fusion, as suggested previously by Winterberg [6,7]. Other nuclear reactions in H(0) may be the main processes considered to be cold fusion, with very little of normal fusion products like 4He and neutrons out.

    Edited 2 times, last by can ().

  • can

    There are a few relevant details in those quotes.

    It looks like Mills is thinking that hydrinos are lighter than air. This contradicts with UDH which has an extreme density and thus is very heavy and won't vanish in air.

    The production of oxygen, also mentioned in the above first quote, could, combined with high temperature, cause the decomposition of UDH, maybe indeed to regular Hydrogen. But as we both agree, a complete cycle of production and decomposition of UDH would result in zero net energy. Maybe part is accumulated and part is decomposed.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    Indeed the idea that hydrinos are lighter than air appears to be very different from that of UDH clusters having extreme densities. However I think one has to make a distinction between a continuous phase of matter composed of such clusters from the clusters in isolation.

    Isolated ultra-dense hydrogen clusters like the 3- or 4- atoms clusters (the ones that do not have super properties) should be expected to exist also in the gas phase and possibly be light enough to escape the Earth's atmosphere like helium does, as Mills suggests.

    Accumulation of many clusters and intermolecular forces would instead give a liquid phase of 'true' ultra-density. This excerpt from https://doi.org/10.1007/s10509-019-3632-y (open access) seems relevant:

    Whether accumulation (assuming the UDH model holds true there as well) occurs in Mills' reactors will depend on experimental conditions and materials used; it's difficult to say for sure what will happen given they are very different from Holmlid's—but liquid metals apparently are best suited for UDH cluster accumulation and Mills has used/is using them in some devices (gallium, silver?).



    [...] According to various embodiments, furthermore, the hydrogen accumulator may further comprise a metallic absorbing member for absorbing hydrogen in the ultra-dense state, arranged in the accumulation portion of the hydrogen accumulating member. Hereby, the super-fluid ultra-dense hydrogen can be retained in the accumulation portion, which provides for a more efficient generation of muons.

    Advantageously, the metallic absorbing member may be made of at least one material selected from the group consisting of a metal in a liquid state at an operating temperature for the apparatus, and a catalytically active metal in a solid state at the operating temperature for the apparatus.

    Examples of suitable materials for the metallic absorbing member include liquid or easily melted metals like Ga or K, and solid catalytically active metals like Pt or Ni etc.

  • Referring to the interview with Sveinn Ólaffson, I am wondering why he mentioned that when muon are stopped X-rays and/or gamma radiation should be detected (in the video at around 20:00 minutes).

    Muons normally decay after approximately 2.2 us into electrons, muon-neutrinos and elektron-neutrino.

    When I look at wiki there is no mentioning of X-rays or gamma radiation, so these effects should then occur when stopping muons before they decay. But what does stop mean in such case? I would expect they replace electrons of atoms that form the mass that stop muons, which in turn could create transmutations. Is it the transmutations that cause these X-rays and gamma radiations? This also the reason why I asked Holmlid whether he detected any transmutations in his setup.

    If I understand correctly Holmlid applied a scintillator to stop muons. Why did he not detect and report X-rays and gamma radiation? Maybe I missed this.

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.