The LENR Induced Fission Thread

  • When two deuterons fuse conventional wisdom says they create a highly excited helium 4 nucleus. That excess energy can be released in three ways, emit a photon, emit a proton and become tritium, or emit a neutron and become helium 3. The helium 3 has the highest probability of occuring.


    Both forms of helium are considered stable isotopes. It appears no one ever considered the possibility of fission involving stable isotopes. Well, nearly everyone. The people who built Joseph Papp's Noble Gas Engine either stumbled into it or had an inkling.


    Here's how it works:

    When the compression stroke finishes and the power stroke begins the spark excites enough He4 atoms to cause enough energetic neutrons to be produced to cause a large pressure increase and drive the piston. These neutrons, however, are quickly absorbed by the other Noble gasses. So the pressure drops. Also the various gasses become neutral. In particular the just created He3 atoms acquire electrons and since He3 is a refrigerant they suck up some of the heat of the reaction. So, the engine puts out mechanical power with little heat output.


    If the calorimetry guys got this as a black box, they'd go nuts trying to figure out how the efficiency could be so high.


    What we have here is a device combining both nuclear and chemical processes. Well, that's engineering.


  • Just a few problems. Any one of which might be enough to explain why no-one except possibly Papp (whose expertise in engineering appears to have been much less than his ability to extract money from people) has considered this.


    • Neutrons do not cause significant pressure unless they thermalise - in which case the hot results cause pressure.
    • Nobel gasses are pretty well transparent to neutrons - must be since the nuclei are far apart and neutrons interact only with nuclei. So they will prefer to thermalise in whatever metal etc container there is, not the Nobel gasses. No way will gasses quickly absorb neutrons.
    • He3 is not a refrigerant in the sense you say here - it is a gas that can be used to make a phase change refrigerator (working at 0.3K, not present in your case) - very different. Specifically - He3 atoms do not suck up heat. Not even a little bit.

    THH

  • emit a neutron and become helium 3

    I ask, GRMattson


    At what range of energy levels is that neutron emitted?


    As in understand it, low energy neutrons are not directly detected.


    Neutrons are directly detected at 3MeV Neutrons... Below that not?


    lenr-forum.com/attachment/21652/https://iopscience.iop.org › article

    The Angular Distribution of 3 MeV. Neutrons scattered by Protons and by Deuterons

    by WF Caplehorn · 1951 · Cited by 11 — The angular distribution of scattering of 3 MeV. neutrons by protons and by deuterons has been investigated with a Wilson cloud chamber


    https://link.springer.com › epjp

    Measurements of the low-energy neutron and gamma ray accompaniment of extensive air showers in the knee region of primary cosmic ray spectrum - Springer

    by A Shepetov · 2020 · Cited by 10 — The total duration of detectable radiation signal after the EAS passage can be of some tens of milliseconds in the case of neutron component...

    THHuxley  THHuxleynew Basic physics

    Signatures by which a neutron may be detected

    Atomic and subatomic particles are detected by the signature they produce through interaction with their surroundings. The interactions result from the particles' fundamental characteristics.

    • Charge: Neutrons are neutral particles and do not ionize directly; hence they are harder than charged particles to detect directly. Further, their paths of motion are only weakly affected by electric and magnetic fields.
    • Mass: The neutron mass of 1.0086649156(6) u[1] is not directly detectable, but does influence reactions through which it can be detected.
    • Reactions: Neutrons react with a number of materials through elastic scattering producing a recoiling nucleus, inelastic scattering producing an excited nucleus, or absorption with transmutation of the resulting nucleus. Most detection approaches rely on detecting the various reaction products.
    • Magnetic moment: Although neutrons have a magnetic moment of −1.9130427(5) μN, techniques for detection of the magnetic moment are too insensitive to use for neutron detection.
    • Electric dipole moment: The neutron is predicted to have only a tiny electric dipole moment, which has not yet been detected. Hence it is not a viable detection signature.
    • Decay: Outside the nucleus, free neutrons are unstable and have a mean lifetime of 885.7±0.8 s (about 14 minutes, 46 seconds).[1] Free neutrons decay by emission of an electron and an electron antineutrino to become a proton, a process known as beta decay: .

    Classic neutron detection options

    As a result of these properties, detection of neutrons fall into several major categories:

    • Absorptive reactions with prompt reactions - low energy neutrons are typically detected indirectly through absorption reactions. Typical absorber materials used have high cross sections for absorption of neutrons and include helium-3, lithium-6, boron-10, and uranium-235. Each of these reacts by emission of high energy ionized particles, the ionization track of which can be detected by a number of means. Commonly used reactions include 3He(n,p) 3H, 6Li(n,t) 4He, 10B(n,α) 7Li and the fission of uranium.
    • Activation processes - Neutrons may be detected by reacting with absorbers in a radiative capture, spallation or similar reaction, producing reaction products that then decay at some later time, releasing beta particles or gammas. Selected materials (e.g., indium, gold, rhodium, iron (56Fe(n,p) 56Mn), aluminum (27Al(n,α)24Na), niobium (93Nb(n,2n) 92mNb), & silicon (28Si(n,p) 28Al)) have extremely large cross sections for the capture of neutrons within a very narrow band of energy. Use of multiple absorber samples allows characterization of the neutron energy spectrum. Activation also enables the reconstrucion of an historic neutron exposure (e.g., forensic reconstruction of neutron exposures during an accidental criticality).
    • Elastic scattering reactions (also referred to as proton-recoil) - High energy neutrons are typically detected indirectly through elastic scattering reactions. Neutrons collide with the nuclei of atoms in the detector, transferring energy to those nuclei and creating ions, which are detected. Since the maximum transfer of energy occurs when the mass of the atom with which the neutron collides is comparable to the neutron mass, hydrogenous materials are often the preferred medium for such detectors.
  • The idea that fission is occurring (in LENR experiments) is something we wrote about in our book "The Nature of the Atom, An Introduction to the Structured Atom Model".

    In short, Many experiments show (in our mind) conclusively that stable heavy elements such as Pd, Ag, W, etc can (and are) fission-ed into smaller elements ranging from Li to Ce. We believe that this is in fact often the source of seen transmutations and excess energy.

    Cold fusion may well turn out the be "cold fission"

  • Gregory Byron Goble


    The binding energy of he4 is 28.3 Mev. Why would one expect to detect them outside of the engine? There are plenty of targets for them in the engine in the form of the partially ionized heavier Noble gasses (atomic scale rather than fentameter).

  • Edo


    I'm not trying to replace cold fusion with cold fission but rather a path for producing he3 at will and hopefully starting some research that leads to the truth about Papp's Engine.

  • THHuxleynew


    I was kind of wondering if the he3 atom might have a higher internal energy than the he4 and so account for the low heat output. Such an effect would occur for each new group of he3 atoms per power cycle. But maybe the collisions of the neutrons with the atomic scale heavier Noble Gas ions might generate the pressure without much heat. Interesting things to consider.

  • I'm not trying to replace cold fusion with cold fission but rather a path for producing he3 at will and hopefully starting some research that leads to the truth about Papp's Engine.

    So what elements were available in this engine? Are metals available> noble gasses? O, H, C, N ?

    The point I am trying to make is that fission and fusion are both seen in many experiments. At least that is out conclusion.....

  • Papp had a Volvo engine modified. So you can start there for some materials. The engine was supposed to run on Noble gasses only. He did put in some thorium, possibly to help start the reaction. If the neutrons are not absorbed by the heavier Noble gasses they would eventually decay to hydrogen. An engine is a complex device. As I indicated the heavier Noble gasses would not be completely ionized. Collisions between them and the neutrons solves the question of why the other Noble gasses. The helium 4 might not have all been ionized as well, depending on the distance from the spark. Check Papp"s patents for further insight.

  • Papp had a Volvo engine modified. So you can start there for some materials. The engine was supposed to run on Noble gasses only. He did put in some thorium, possibly to help start the reaction. If the neutrons are not absorbed by the heavier Noble gasses they would eventually decay to hydrogen. An engine is a complex device. As I indicated the heavier Noble gasses would not be completely ionized. Collisions between them and the neutrons solves the question of why the other Noble gasses. The helium 4 might not have all been ionized as well, depending on the distance from the spark. Check Papp"s patents for further insight.

    So there are many elements involved potentially. Thorium, the metal of the engine, air elements and the noble gasses/ So it is not too difficult for me to imagine that even in this contraption fission may be a real effect causing the excess energy to occur..

  • This is from the 3rd patent no.

    The fuel of the present invention includes a mixture of inert gases including approximately 36% helium, approximately 26% neon, approximately 17% argon, approximately 13% krypton, and approximately 8% xenon by volume.

    If we follow the line of thinking
    here, it would seem to me we cannot exclude this contraption to work, because IF the Xenon for example were to fission even with a small percentage, there would be quite a bit of energy release. I have seen to many results that point to this to be dismissive of this before further investigation. As is the case with so many experiments and inventions, there are too many elements involved and no clear indication what is happening on the nuclear level.
    All I am saying I think is that there may be more reactions involved than we assume. LENR is much more than D-D fusion! It involves probably a mixture of fusion, fission, spallation and beta decay....

  • To complete that: ( 36% helium, approximately 26% neon, approximately 17% argon, approximately 13% krypton, and approximately 8% xenon by volume) we should also take in account the matter of the "vessel", its rugosity and its running temperature ( Thz frequencies).

    This is from the 3rd patent no.

    The fuel of the present invention includes a mixture of inert gases including approximately 36% helium, approximately 26% neon, approximately 17% argon, approximately 13% krypton, and approximately 8% xenon by volume.

    If we follow the line of thinking
    here, it would seem to me we cannot exclude this contraption to work, because IF the Xenon for example were to fission even with a small percentage, there would be quite a bit of energy release. I have seen to many results that point to this to be dismissive of this before further investigation. As is the case with so many experiments and inventions, there are too many elements involved and no clear indication what is happening on the nuclear level.
    All I am saying I think is that there may be more reactions involved than we assume. LENR is much more than D-D fusion! It involves probably a mixture of fusion, fission, spallation and beta decay....

  • Some clarification: The binding energy is defined as the energy (work) needed to being the nucleons together to form the nucleous. (Sort of like compressing a spring.) The strong force overcomes the coulomb force to hold the nucleons together. (The spring gets latched.). For helium 4 the binding energy is 28.3 Mev. If you can break the strong force by exciting the nucleous enough the binding energy becomes available, but it has to go somewhere. Helium 3 is the perfect vehicle. It has a binding energy of 7.8 Mev. The difference in binding energies then can excite the emitted neutron. That's about 20.5 Mev, a lot of energy.


    Joseph Papp claimed his engine could produce 100 horsepower. How many reactions per second does that require?


    If the engine ran on fission from xenon then it would only have Argon and xenon in it. There would be no need or sense to have the other gasses.😎

  • The Number of reactions at 100 horsepower output is 2.28x10^16/sec. While that is much less than the number of atoms in a mol of helium 4 it should be pointed that to reach Papp's maximum operating time per charge, 6000 hours, it would get close to a total of Avogadro's Number. Therefore one can conclude that an attempt was made to charge the engine with one mol of helium 4, or 4 grams of helium 4. From the percentages given one can then ascertain the weights of the other gasses.

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    With one helium, I got a spark on the stator, I don't know what to do next, but this is already proof of plasma to give electricity!

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