The perpetual “is LENR even real” argument thread.

Quote from THHuxleynew

r. I do not know of any. But I do not think I am competent to find all possible errors! Not even, in this case, half-competent.

So .. because you who are not even "half competent "you are 100% competent to say..

" Staker needs to add gas volume measurement to his careful calorimetry for his results to be credible"

"to be credible" hmm

I asked you " a self-admitted very-not-expert in calorimetry -

to provide numbers to back up your "gas volume" .

but all you gave was "gas"...lots of words

I ask you again

what numerical effect would "gas volume" have on the measured excess heat.?

perhaps you can confirm with chatbox or Ascoli..

Quote from mjtrac

I'm not saying you need to replicate Staker, I'm saying you can go watch him do his experiment, confirm it, and then convince one of those mean people in mainstream science to do the same. Why should you do that?

Easier said that done. He cannot even get funding from the university or anyone else. When I last heard from him he was paying for everything himself.

You have to realize, people do not want to associated with cold fusion. For good reason! If a professional scientist were to tell his colleagues: "I am going to look at a cold fusion experiment. It might be interesting . . ." he would be fired in a week.

Quote from JedRothwell

He cannot even get funding

perhaps mjtrac can provide funding...peanuts are not enough

Quote from Ascoli65

Any analysis will always hit a rubber wall.

any analysis from Ascoli hits not a rubberwall.. but the Titanic.

on the other hand Ascoli can you recall how your ' microanalysis' of

Mizuno's gas phase LENR spreadsheet results did go?

" Scientists are curious: "

Did the imbroglioso progress or did it hit a brickwall?

Post

RE: Mizuno Airflow Calorimetry

[…]

Its not noise
why does the the 5W blower power have three to four times the discrepancy of the 120W heater power..?

Neither Ascoli nor his convincee THHnew have addressed this 3 to 4 x discrepancy in the extreme scenario of
the purported use by Mizuno of a special averaging meter for the heater power measurements
and of pasting of results from one spreadsheet to another.

I hope that from now on there will be silencio about this foolish scenario
and no more boring…

RobertBryant

Sep 13th 2019

At your leisure,,, 11.oo pm in Rome

Its 700 am Sunday here.. getting ready to go to LENR church,

Quote from THHuxleynew

You are right I should do that.

So do it..

numbers please

at your leisure.. what time is it there?

Quote from THHuxleynew

Well, Staker appears to disagree (I think),

Staker is working in the classic F&P electrolysis system, and in this context high loading (that assumes that the electrode is a sort of sponge that can absorb and retain H or D during the electrolysis) is considered necessary by people that works extensively in this kind of system, like Mc Kubre. When Alan Smith says that this is invalidated by many other experiments, he is talking about gas loading systems, where no electrolysis is required, and flow of the gaseous hydrogen isotopes through the lattice (be it a thin film, tubing, wire, composite multilayered material, nano powder, etc) is what causes the excess heat. This can be achieved in many ways, but the increasing consensus is that flux is required.

Quote from THHuxleynew

which have always seemed to me the best option for delivering clearer results.

You are entitled to your opinion on that.

Quote from mjtrac

This thread reminds me of something one of our public atheists has pointed out: even religious believers decline to believe in all gods offered for their approval, except their own.

I can only vouch for my own stance on this, but I can say that I don't believe in LENR, I have seen enough evidence of it to be aware of it's importance and how much more work is required to understand it to the level of it being as useful as it has the potential to be.

Quote from mjtrac

This thread reminds me of something one of our public atheists

throwing irrelevant peanuts from anonymity.

. bravo to your gallery

have you even looked at any LENR research

Quote from THHuxleynew

If the syringes have an absolute volume error of 1ml,

Quote from mjtrac

Worst anonymity ever!!

worst peanuts ever

"atheists"

goes with " selfhypnotism faith" "Titanic " from Ascoli

and "Zealots" from another anonymous peanut thrower

have you even looked at the Staker or other evidence?

or are you just content to throw peanuts from the sidelines

at least THH tries..even at 11.00 on Saturday night

I've got to give him that

Quote from THHuxleynew

In that same post you quoted - I put numbers!

Sorry..miissed your "1ml." in the 'word'

I am basically an engineer

too many words confuse me

and thanks for leaving out "credibility"

you said the error in the volume reading might be 1 ml or 5%

so the D2O could be 18.9 mls rather than18 mls

in that case the heat production by the D2O should be decreased by 5%?

Maybe that might explain away some of the excess heat in the steady phase

my bet is that Staker weighed 18ml H20 .. engineers do like accuracy.. 0.1/0.01 mg(0.01/0.001ml )

pipettes? "pipette volume 20 mL, accuracy: 0.03 mL."

but its hard to explain away the dramatic bifurcation btw D2O/H2O at "runaway"

I'll ask Dr Staker about "1 ml.."

Quote from RobertBryant

Sorry..miissed your "1ml." in the 'word'

I am basically an engineer

too many words confuse me

and thanks for leaving out "credibility"

you said the error in the volume reading might be 1 ml or 5%

so the D2O could be 21 mls rather than 20mls

in that case the heat production by the D2O should be decreased by 5%

Maybe that might explain away the excess heat in the steady phase

but its hard to explain the dramatic bifurcation btw D2O/H2O at "runaway"

I'll ask Dr Staker about "1 ml.."

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I posted a comment on his ResearchGate page asking for his commentary about the effect of the recombination heat, hopefully we can get an answer.

Quote from THHuxleynew

You are right I should do that.

I did however reference the paper (which I am sure you know well) that Staker used, and it bounded recombination using measurement of gas volume.

In fact the bound could come from either measuring fill-up liquid volume, or H2+O2 gas volume, and comparing this with that expected from the total charge passing through the electrolyte in the experiment.

The apparent excess energy comes from the combustion energy of hydrogen: 286kJ/mol. Converting this to mass of result:

18g H2O recombined adds 286kJ of energy, or alternatively:

15.8kJ apparent excess per ml of fill-up water added less than that amount expected.

For the results in [2] Staker cites 0.775MJ as the excess heat measured over 46 days. That corresponds to a fill-up volume discrepancy (if all from recombination) of 50ml. You would expect that to be obvious in the context of this experiment.

However I can nowhere find any reference to the electrolysis current that he uses for this result, so I cannot say what is the total fill-up volume required for this excess energy, and therefore what is the percentage error. If the syringes have an absolute volume error of 1ml, whatever volume is dispensed, obviously recombination is insignificant. But most syringes of this type would have a relative volume error - we could be surer if we knew that and the electrolysis current, therefore the volume error could be determined.

The paper does at one point mention electrode current - but it is a 4 wire system allowing electrode resistivity measurement and temperature compensation through resistive power dissipation, and that current is I think not the electrolysis current.

One complication. Evaporation - which you would expect could be significant over 46 days - will reduce the liquid level, whereas recombination will increase it. So to be sure recombination does not happen through measuring input fill-up volume we need to bound the liquid lost through evaporation.

THH

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I’m inclined to think this post of yours is of good quality, and therefore I thank you for making a reasonable effort to explain your concerns. I think the reason the exhaust gases go to an oil deposit is to be able to see if water (light or heavy, be it from recombination or evaporation) accumulates below the oil, but this is not stated explicitly so is just an inference from the fact that it was reported explicitly that the exhaust goes to an oil reservoir, and I assume is for that practical reason (which I think would be a clever way to do so).

Quote from THHuxleynew

That is not true: at least for good quality academic institutions in the UK. It is pretty difficult to fire professors.

It has been dead easy with cold fusion in the U.S., Italy, Japan and elsewhere. I wouldn't know about the UK. You accuse the researcher of some crime, which means tenure does not apply. The plasma fusion lobby takes to the pages of the Washington Post and accuses any cold fusion researcher of being a fraud, liar and lunatic. Again, tenure does not protect frauds. If the researcher is not a citizen, you have the government threaten to deport him. Other methods of discouraging the research include destroying all equipment and throwing away books and papers when the researcher goes on vacation.

These methods are effective.

Oh, and one more method should be mentioned. You lie, and lie, and lie about the work in public, you misrepresent every aspect of it, and never bother to read anything. Those are familiar tactics.