THH's conclusion is based upon analyses which are in this thread for you to go back and read and comment upon. The conclusion is either solid, or there's some holes in it. Perhaps you'll be willing to raise your own comments above the level of conjecture by going back and identifying what is conjecture in THH's conclusion about the upper bound on power dissipation?
It's all conjecture at this point in the discussion, either way.
conspiracy theories indeed. "Russians stole my fuel"
Priceless...sounds like Rossi is self deluded to the point of Alex Jones type mania!
Perhaps his defence will be he's a "performance artist".
Seriously? They continued having faith in him after that one?
They deserve to lose every penny if that sort of naivete towards what appears to be a man not in touch with reality is the norm.
Those pesky Russians and their UFOs sneaking into his plant .
Sure smells like brand new astroturf here.
I don't have time right now to make up a story like I did with Darden but in my opinion Rossi is a paranoid who is also lying to himself. He got these early test results that looked good making him think he is the greatest inventor ever who is going to get rich and save humanity at the same time. I think he actually believes he has this awesome invention. This is why he can get others to support him because he is sincere in his belief. Then when people object to something in his experiments, the paranoia kicks in and they are now the enemy. Every action he takes must be interpreted in light of his us verses them mentality. Now his entire self worth is vested in proving himself and his invention right. Because every person who disagrees with him is the enemy, anything is justifiable in the good cause. Also, every person that confronts him makes him more of a martyr because he is being persecuted. This is why people can not work with him because their is no way to bring him back into reality. A lot of great inventors in the past have worked this way. Some succeeded in spite of it, more got destroyed because of it.
You may be partly right on this, but only partly because suspicion of ones business partners need not be based on total craziness. If you had been through what Rossi has you might be a bit paranoid too.
Breaking news: physicists in humour fail.
Its a big pipe
No its a little pipe
There's no pipe
Its an imaginary pipe rated a 38litres per hour with imagined condensate in it.
No it can't be I've done the imaginary maths projections for a pipe that may or may not exist.
No you haven't
Yes I have.
Its BEHIND you¡ in the roof!
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
Cont. For 6000 posts. That's 6000. 6000 pages of guessed mathematics when a photo of a steaming tank of water would be the least Rossi might provide as evidence.
That's in addition to the 500 posts about the glass that is or isn't there.
I've read them all and I've snapped.sorry.
I mean if I was Rossi and I was for real with my claims?
I'd at least have the humour to have used the heat output in some way
...like taking a bath
...or brewing coffee ...or SOMETHING... ANYTHING!
HE WOULD BE SO PROUD!!!
HE SHOULD BE LIKE...
"THIS IS THE FIRST USE OF ENERGY FROM A NEW POWER SOURCE!!! THE FIRST!!! "
WHAT YOU DO WITH IT?
OH HE VENTED IT TO ATMOSPHERE VIA A COMPANY THAT ESSENTIALLY DOESNT EVEN EXIST!!!,
THE WHOLE POINT IS TO GET THIS ESSENTIALLY FREE ENERGY!!!
AND YOU DONT EVEN RUN YOURSELF A BATH?
USE IT TO WASH YOUR HANDS?
FILL THE HOT WATER TANK IN THE ATTIC?
NO YOU VENT IT ALL, TO NOWHERE. NOT EVEN A CUP OF TEA?
YOU COULDNT GET AWAY WITH IT IN THE UK. WE WOULD BE LIKE"
WHERES THE TEA?"
"CMON WHERE IS IT?"
THE POWER OF 500 KETTLES !!!
AND NOT A SINGLE PHOTO OF SO MUCH AS A CUP OF STEAMING TEA?
COME OFF IT...
Why do all of your posts sound like anti-Rossi FUD to me. If you are not a troll bot (astroturfer), you sure give a good impression of one.
What Doral warehouse temperature is livable?
Actually an interesting question. I take this as a first reference:
The key is that humidity and temperature are equally relevant. Also, even if Florida air is high humidity, upping the temperature in the Doral warehouse will reduce the relative humidity. Essentially, workers there can stay cool, given enough water, by sweating a lot, providing the relative humidity is low. The important criterion for comfort is wet-bulb temperature. This is much lower than normal temperature, and humans die when it gets above 35C.
So take typical Florida Summer air at peak day-time temperature (33C). The actual comfort depends on humidity, and is shown as wet-bulb temperature. Adding +10C to the air temperature. maintaining the same water content will reduce relative humidity, and therefore the affect on wet-bulb temperature will be a rise of less than 10C.
The above design guidelines show what is the maximum wet-bulb temperature for 1%, 5%, 15% over summer months. Let us take 5% of time, we get 80F throughout Florida or 26.6C wet-bulb. Within 8.4C of lethal which I guess is why there is so much AC in Florida. Note how difficult it is to elevate these high wet-bulb temperatures. adding +10C to real temperature increases wet-bulb here by +2C.
+10C on warehouse temperature (at constant air moisture) gives +2C on wet-bulb temperature of 26.6C, or 28.6C (83.5F). That is well above the 1% Summer condition line for any US city. To actually kill people you need wet-bulb of +35C (at which people cannot reduce temperature by sweating and quite quickly die). But livable conditions are much lower.
The limits here for health and safety state wet-bulb of 30C maximum for continuous light work. Much less for moderate or heavy work. +20C on warehouse temperatures would exceed these limits for 15% of the Summer time.
With +10C air temperature that warehouse would still have been very very uncomfortable indeed, for much of the Summer. If Rossi or anyone else was working continuously inside a container at an air temperature higher than the warehouse by 5C or so he would suffer even more. Anecdotal evidence is that the container temperature was higher than warehouse by more than 5C, so it would be a big deal.
The internet is a wonderful resource, it is impressive that we can come to a definite answer to what temperature excess inside a Florida warehouse would be livable.
I am from the Midwestern US where temperatures in the summer time frequently top 35C (95F) and relative humidity of over 85 Percent. Back in the 1960's most factories were not air conditioned and production continued right along. I do remember one summer when it got to 105F and several people became sick from the heat, but production continued merrily along with the ones that remained (PS: no one died). Of course they were accustomed to such temperatures, but I would wager anyone who lives in South Florida is also.
Oh give me a break. That is so lame.
What you say only strengthens my case. Rossi has been screwed over ever since the early days. Most would have succumbed by now, but it has only made Rossi more aggressive. Reminds me a little of the Trump election and all the pundits saying it wasn't possible for him to win.
IHFB - They may have been clueless early on, but that does not give Rossi the right to run a scam. I think they have awoken and will fight to the end. Rossi made a mistake when he turned it personal against Darden and Vaughn. Darden will not easily "roll over".
No, but he may be knocked over in the end. I think IH still don't have a clue.
You make it sound like this is some heated debate over something nuanced, but what we know already shows it to be nothing of the sort. Nothing nuanced, weighted, or flavored about it...Rossi made up a fake company, dismantled equipment and lied on multiple occasions, all to which he tacitly admits to doing in his own testimony. So are we supposed to sugar coat that, so as not to ruffle feathers?
It is as if we have a photo of Rossi over the body, bloody knife in hand, and you want us to consider that the photo does not show him actually stabbing the victim, or that perhaps the victim was not such a good person either.
No, nothing nuanced, weighted or flavored at all--no, not in million years. Can you even hear yourself speak?
Things have changed? Wilson was president of Princeton in 1902. Fleischmann's career began in the 1940s. There are many accounts of vicious academic politics in Newton's day.
I am sure there have always been convivial academic departments as well.
And I got banned for suggesting repeatedly that many of the opinions here, including yours Jed, were biased along lines of financial special interest, professional jealousy and hubris. I believe this explains to a large degree why F and P were more or less driven out of town following the original 1989 breakthrough. I believe that kind of behavior permeates all facets of our lives and the scientific community is far from immune to it. It is also my opinion that is why Rossi is like he is to a large degree. He has learned the hard way how cut throat and unfair things can be and has become both defensive, and too aggressive with perhaps ill advised counter measures as a result. To a large degree your scientific community has made him who he is, but who he is now may just give him the brass to prevail where others have succumbed to the pressure.
I realize the modern era is politically correct, and many people are delicate snowflakes who cannot stand to be told they are wrong. But I do not see how this applies. IH Fanboy boldly and repeatedly makes impossible claims that violate grade school science. He says that steam leaking from a pipe proves there is steam in the pipe. He agrees with Bass that you can "probe" (magically measure) the energy of steam with a thermometer and a water flow meter. Anyone with knowledge of grade school science knows that these assertions are wrong. They are nonsense. The fact that they are nonsense and the reasons they are nonsense have been described here time after time after time. How could anyone fail to see this?!? These issues are fundamental to this discussion, as pointed out by Smith. They are the ABCs of thermodynamics. They prove beyond any doubt that Penon's report is meaningless. If you don't see that, you see nothing, and you understand nothing about this discussion.
How am I being rude when I point these things out? If this were a discussion group about Shakespeare, and IHFB repeatedly asserted the Shakespeare wrote the Star Wars movies, would it be an insult to point out this is preposterous? Where do we draw the line? Just how stupid does he have to be, and how many times does he have to make the same damn mistake, before it is relevant to point out he is wrong? Are there no technical standards here at all? Are we never allowed to point to conventional textbook science to show that someone is wrong?
IHFB "degrades" himself. He insults himself. I merely point out that is what he is doing.
God it must be hard to be humble when you're the smartest guy in the world, like Jed.
How about tackling why Rossi as JMP dictated and sent IH invoice requests with energy amounts that hugely vary from the ERV energy for the same month?
Or how JMP could measure the energy recieved at all? Bass said they had no way to measure the energy sent from the plant, while Rossi claimed JMP had their own meters and temperature probes.
You see that's the whole nutshell here. It all boils down to he said- she said, or what this expert witness said and what that expert witness said. The Jury's decision all boils down to what it believes out of all this, and what it ends up believing will have little enough to do with who is right or wrong or most believable. What it will have to do with is which side is more adept at presenting a version of events condensed enough so that the Jury doesn't fall asleep or lose interest. After that it falls specifically on the perceived credibility of any witnesses. Not credentials, but the perceived sincerity of those same witnesses, two completely different things.
If you would read the documents, you would see IH memos dated in 2015 stating that they could not get the reactors to work. Earlier memos stated possible excess heat, but those memos also stated that they were not conclusive and needed confirmation. Later testing (before 2016) showed measurement errors and were documented by IH. Read the court documents yourself!
This "reactors worked until the lawsuit" is unfounded and forum fodder.
Following similar logic, I could state that Rossi cannot propose a sale of heat and rental of the plant to a customer for 3 years, sign a contract stating the same and then a year later state it was the GPT after he files the lawsuit! It would be the same logic.
Actually IH denied the Doral event was the GPT and reactors did not work in December of 2015. Rossi had his lawyers writing letters in Dec. 2015. So your point is in groundless based upon submitted court evidence.
Sure it was fake, tongue in cheek, say no more-say no more. If it was fake then it was one of the most transparent and obvious attempts at fakery one could ever imagine, one that would take an idiot to come up with, and Rossi is anything but an idiot. I don't believe it was ever meant to hide much of anything from anyone, including IH. From reading hours and hours of depositions I've come to the conclusion that Rossi originally hoped to bring Johnson Mathey (the real one) on board as a customer.
For whatever reasons that negotiation failed, so to preserve the structure, of what he clearly believed was the GPT, he left the customer configuration in place and proceeded to run it himself. He was hoping not only to satisfy the performance aspect, but also to prove to the public at large that his invention had a practical side. Rossi has learned a lot over the years and probably thought he was playing the shell company game similar to what IH has and went through his various pantomimes and gyrations in pursuit of that. There are indications he hoped even then to produce a product he could then market to JM after the fact, during the test and even beyond to perhaps an additional 2 years.
Besides, all that is completely irrelevant to the terms of the agreement and has nothing to do with whether Rossi should receive the balance of the payment. That depends only on whether he actually produced a COP of either 4 or 6, or greater, depending on interpretation of the contract, and that in turn depends on the CRV information and whether it is correct or corrupted in some undecipherable way. Despite what most who post on this forum would like us to believe, I think the Jury (pun intended) is still out on that. The fact is I believe he met that threshold with room to spare, but may be undone by the way the data was measured and reported. I guess we'll have to wait and see in that regard. One thing I do believe is that the average Jury, during a two week trial, is never going to be able to digest one tenth of the information most of us here have taken in, so a lot of the outcome is going to be governed by the respective attorneys skill in simplifying and condensing it all down to something the Jury can process.
Me not so much, but my wife is an excellent judge of character, she is seldom wrong in that regard. She has been a Juror in a number of cases, both criminal and civil, and says for her it always boiled down to whether the key witnesses were sincere and believable, or not. Not dependent on information, but on gut feeling towards their honesty and sincerity. I believe Rossi is heads up the winner in that regard, and so does she.
They did perform both long-term and short term tests, on several devices, with Rossi's help. None of them worked.
They don't get to claim they worked and then decide they didn't after all, as soon as Rossi files suit.
Could you define mocking parade?
I accept that Darden works for both Cherokee and IH, and that Cherokee have invested in IH. As have Woodward.
Would you like to answer my point about external research companies? Without such restrictions, how could IH validate LENR technology? It is far from what you interpret, and sort of necessary for anyone except Rossi who does not validate technology.
When you boil it down Rossi's invention of a few shell entities, including JMP, doesn't hold a candle to IH and Darden and their own many levels of flim flam. Yet when Rossi does it a single time with the so called "customer" he is branded a fake and a charlatan. In my view he was simply imitating his partner.
At ECW, you get banned if you do not believe Rossi. I know from personal experience.
Here at LENR forum, no one forces you to read Rossi vs Darden. You can skip it whenever you like and just read whatever thread you like.
I follow the Bob Higgins experiment thread and have seen no arguments and very good dialog. It is indeed at times, a refreshing break from Rossi vs. Darden!
At ECW, you will only be allowed to make pro-Rossi posts for any period of time. Which do you really prefer... the ability to choose what to read and post, or have Frank Ackland decide what you can read and post? (This is not meant to be a diss on Frank, I think he is a good person overall) My point is, that in one forum you have freedom of choice, in the other you do not.
I personally will take the freedom and appreciate it. While the moderators have a tough job (and they cannot please everyone) I think overall they do a much better job than the totalitarian oversight used by Frank. (And I appreciate that....probably do not say it enough)
Separating threads and keeping them on topic is exactly the tool intended to address your concern. Do not like to read about Rossi? Do not click on the Rossi vs Darden thread! That simple!
I personally see more bias here than on ECW. Here supporter's of Rossi are denigrated , ridiculed and eventually banned if they respond in kind. I see ECW as less technically oriented, but more evenly balanced over all.
Watching, as usual.
Personally, I would not dream of banning Jed unless he went much further overboard than he currently does, he is most welcome here. As a long-time observer and documenter of the whole field of LENR he is a kind of national treasure - a treasure who uses his real name, too. I understand that Jed is possibly almost as grouchy as I can be, though less grouchy than some, and that he gets frustrated when other people fail to see things in the same light as he does. Natural enough since he feels he is working from a sound knowledge base about the situation between Rossi and IH. So long as he doesn't start threatening to launch munitions at those who hold opposing points of view he is safer here than some I won't mention.
The very last thing this forum needs to be is an echo-chamber for one point of view on Rossi - or indeed anything else. There are other forums for that. Disparate points of view are acceptable, always. Bullying, doxxing, trolling, insulting, threatening, - all banning offences usually after several warnings, but a little grumpiness is mostly acceptable.
Alan, IMHO this is a blatant double standard. No matter what Jed's qualifications he passed "grumpiness" ages ago. I've taken to passing by his posts mostly just because they are so repetitive and so derogatory. Like IHF suggested they seem to have taken on an element of desperation, which makes me wonder even more if he has some sort of concealed self interest in IH prevailing, and in Rossi failing, which coincidentally leaves IH in possession of his IP, which, oddly, they somehow continue to value despite their many protestations that it is worthless (sorry for the long sentence). I took the time during my recent banning to read up on the depositions posted on the internet.
Rossi's actions certainly contain an element of "strangely transparent" duplicity, which IMHO opinion belies the assertion that he attempted in fact to hide much of anything. Perhaps he was just imitating IH's convoluted shell game with investors to try and lend more credibility to the positive outcome of the test by having a "so called", customer for validation. I think the actions of both sides stink to high heaven, but I'm also experienced enough to know this is more or less acceptable in the area of venture capital and big business in general. There may be high ideals practiced in the sciences, but free enterprise is and always has been a messy business. All seems considered to be fair in love, war and business.
I'm not attempting to hide my identity. My name is Mike Rion and I am a retired real estate broker and developer in Southern California. I'm not a scientist and therefore unqualified to challenge the likes of Jed on matters of flow meters and calorimetry, but I am a mature, successful professional. I have participated in many civil trials related to real estate and development and that just may make me more qualified in judging how a normal jury might view the information presented to them at trial. IMHO if the attorneys get off into the weeds about the credibility of either party, neither will fare well in the end. To my way of thinking this boils down to the reliability of the test information and whether the 1year test (GPT) was actually the agreed upon standard for payment.
It seems obvious to me that Rossi considered it so and went to an incredible amount of effort to make it successful. Despite AEG's (contrived and coordinated?) refusal to sign I think IH's failure to officially deny the fact in writing goes in Rossi's favor. As a prospective Juror I think I might conclude this was example of a powerful big business entity trying to take advantage of a poor hard working inventor who seems more interested in his legacy, success and recognition than in the money. I also think that the question of whether the technology actually works is a reasonably small part of this trial, and if either side tries to make it so it will result in the jury losing interest in the proceedings. It's just too technical for most lay people.
Of course they are in it for the money! They are venture capitalists.
Seriously, what a stupid thing to say.
Guy comes into a restaurant, sits down at a table, looks over a menu. IH Fanboy the waiter says: "I won't serve you! You are only here for the food."
Well, I guess I am un-banned, at least for the moment. Unless I misinterpreted things (and I don't think I did) this kind of rhetoric is why so many of us were banned to begin with. Jed Rothwells constant and unreasonable verbal flagellation of anyone who doesn't agree with him (usually IH Fanboy) is disgusting and even more discouraging is the moderators apparent reluctance to hold him to the same high standards as many of the rest of us. Alan, Eric where are you on this?
anotherTroll - your attacks on everybody who shows any sign on not believing Rossi and his fake opera at Doral are miserable and speak for itself. What is your own opinion on Rossi? You seem to fully support his agenda to sue IH without asking any question to him or yourself. Rossi is the poor and honest guy that needs help because he was fallen in the hands of robbers, evil investors and bloodsuckers? You should be fair and analyze both sides to understand why most people here came to the conclusion that Rossi is a conman.
It seems to me that the Rossi haters here are beginning to foam at the mouth. I'm just not sure why they have become so rabid about putting down anyone who does not agree with them. It smacks of desperation on someone's part, perhaps IH's.
IH did not want the test in the first place. If they had tried to stop it, they knew Rossi would walk away. By the time the test began they had tested Rossi's devices extensively and they knew that none of them worked. The test was a last-ditch, Hail Mary effort. It did not cost them much. As they said, if there is even a 1% chance left that it might work, why not let Rossi try for a year.
Back in 1990, after the F and P announcement, it seemed clear to me that a lot of the criticism they received came from other scientist that were envious of their discovery. Could some of this be going on here, Jed?
OK Wy, please show me one place where IH stated the pipe was DN40 in depositions under oath and repeatedly in fact!
As a matter of fact, please show me one time where there is a proven lie in any IH depositions. That will help me understand your case.
(Remember, the memo of Murray's was written well before the lawsuit, simply asking questions to be cleared up, which were never answered.)
Dewey sure as heck insinuated it over and over, and may have even made the claim. And he is paid directly by IH.
I would feel ashamed to put the name Rossi in the same sentence as F & P, stating they are similar!
F&P were respected scientist, who answered questions truthfully! They did NOT make up fake customers, fake sales, fake factories, fake, fake, fake ...... lies. Their reputation was built on solid work. Truly examined by others and with sound results.
They were badly misjudged by a few in key positions with agendas and that unfortunately tarnished their fine work. HOWEVER.... they did not tarnish it themselves! Rossi has only Rossi to blame for this mess. No one else.
If Rossi had a working product, he could easily dispell all these conflicts. He could easily arrange real and legitimate replications. What does he do.... fake, lie and cheat.
Comparing F&P to Rossi is a slap in the face to them!
Again, this did not stop a lot professionals from accusing them of falsifying things at the time. There were some pretty outrageous accusations thrown about and, yes, they did have much better reputations than Rossi. This makes it doubly bad.
You didn't reply to my request: Please cite where IH says that they were seeing COP 5, 9, or 11 with their own built devices!
What you did is: You first spread "fake news", and when caught on it, you tried to wiesel out.
That has been shown here multiple times. Where have you been?
You may very well be right.
Anyway, for which kind of Rossi apologist would you feel more sorry:
For someone who defends Rossi because he is just that
batshit insanegullible that he (still) believes this charade?
Or for a guy who desperately defends this e-cat farce because he fears to sink together with Rossi in one boat?
How about for a guy who doesn't want to see the same thing happen to Rossi that happened to F and P back in 1990. Everyone thinks he has it figured out, but he doesn't, not by a long shot. Not even me.
No I am an engineer working in the energy field and have never met, been approached by or asked by anyone anywhere in this this ridiculous Ecat charade.
Click on my user name and you will fine responses on Discuss before this blog started.
Like most, when I first saw this article in January of 2011, I was intrigued and have followed it closely since.
However, after 6 years and a grand total of nothing but "Rossi says"
My experiences and observations of same leave me to believe that Rossi is a pathological, liar and a delusional quack.
Believe it or not I recall similar things being said about the original F and P, back in 1990. Yes, I am old enough to remember and didn't believe it about them back then.
I wrote: "And Gullstrom will have needed to answer questions such as these [Is the power going into it 0.011 W or 10 W? ...] as well, or alternatively to have taken Rossi on his word instead, as he appears to have done."
I get that you're kind of a troll here, and that you are unable for whatever reason to participate in this conversation constructively. But looking past that for a moment, do you see a third alternative to the two that I mentioned above? It is more like mathematics or logic than speculation to set out the various possibilities, but perhaps I've missed some.
My point is that there are important facts missing, yet we go on trying to provide them by speculation. I don't have to be a genius scientist to see the futility in that. With you guys the glass is always half empty it seemes.
IHFB - your inability to process and understand even the basics makes you self-made alright. We'll leave it at that.
Peter - there is no intelligible data from Doral in the evidence. What was admittedly destroyed by FF, Penon and Rossi
means that adverse interpretation is heading their way by a legal standard. From your point of view, the raw data behind the most important invention
in 100 years has been destroyed along wth realms of other evidence. Somehow you will still find faith in your boy Rossi but please understand you're looking
incredulous to the truth in the process. Your loss may not be irrevocable - you have to come to terms with this. March madness has turned to March sadness for the Planet Rossi remnant. Please start to deal with this, dig deep and find a way move on.
At this point I've come to discount just about every word written by you are Jed. You are both so clearly biased in favor of IH that your comments at best can only be considered in their humorous context, much like the writings of Mark Twain. M'thinks you doth protest too much.
Fanboy, (like most at ECW), just can't let it go, the grasping at straws was both predictable and expected.
Soon, they will find another lame specification in an attempt to stave off the inevitable, the fact that they, as relatively smart people were "hoodwinked" by a scam artist, which is impossible
Roseland67 Are you now or have you ever been associated with IH or any of its shell companies?
It's not a dodge to provide information that is correct and relevant that addresses an unspoken assumption of your question. But to the question, I would definitely notice heat and light, in the similar manner to the heat and light that I observe in a lightbulb. Now is the lightbulb giving off 10 W? Is the power going into it 0.011 W or 10 W? These are the kinds of questions that are necessary to answer in order to draw any further conclusions and for which I would not be of much help.
And Gullstrom will have needed to answer questions such as these as well, or alternatively to have taken Rossi on his word instead, as he appears to have done.
More speculation with few facts. Oh well.