Flow meter used in 1-MW test

  • Nope. After they prove that it was fraud, there was no machine and no heat in the pretend customer site, the only role Penon will play will be in an orange suit in jail with the others.


    If they have a picture of that empty site .. why did the not enter it with their response (called answer)...



    So, can we take your interpretation of these facts to be as good as gold? Just like the temperature data?


    I guess JED now is aware, that he lied about the 100.1... (IH told the court it was above 102!)


    You can be sure that is true because this is what Exhibit 5 says (if you read between the lines a little).


    Exhibit 5 is a document written by a party, which does not like to pay 89$ Million dollars for a COP 6 heater, which does not run as expected. We all understand that very well...


    Of course if (and only if) Penon and all involved, acted with a criminal intention, then we all wish him a nice stay in a numbered overall.

  • Isn't it interesting that the answer never outright states that Murray wrote this exhibit (because based on the legalese, it clearly wasn't him).


    I am sure he did write it. But, for the sake of argument, suppose he did not. The questions are still entirely reasonable. They all pertain to engineering, not legal issues, so Penon had a contractual obligation to answer them. He was being paid to answer them. They are the same questions many other people raised, including me. So it makes no difference who wrote it. He should have answered.

  • Quote

    JedRothwell: Defkalion set up the meters. But the fraud was not in the meters. It was in the configuration of the flow, and the induced backflow. The meters had nothing to do with it, although they did reveal the problem to McKubre and other sharp observers.


    Under heavy cross examination, JedRothwell admitted that the Defkalion meter was not manipulated to perpetrate fraud. But JedRothwell and his minions set up a false equivalence syllogism between the "fraud" Defkalion case and the Rossi flow meter situation. The Rothwell logic is clearly flawed in his FUD construction. Stating it simply, Defkalion's flow meter being good cannot prove that Rossi's flow meter is bad.


    What was a fraud was the flow pattern inside the Defkalion reactor. However, Gambarelli's case is based on a fraudulent flow meter setup.


    The analysis of McKubre and other sharp observers disproves the accusations made in the Gambarelli meme about an fraudulent Defkalion flow meter setup.


    Gambarelli claim that Defkalion refused to allow him to destroy months of setup work by NI engineers was certain proof that Defkalion was protecting a fraud based demo setup. What other reason would Defkalion have to forbid Gambarelli to screw with their meticulously setup demo engineered by National Instruments if it was not the intent by Defkalion to defraud.


    This all goes to show how FUD campaigns can be exposed through the patient though stubborn application of logic.


    Now Jed is going to reformulate his FUD logic to compensate for the logical inconsistencies that his arguments reveal. We await this show to begin forthwith.


    How ironic it is that the group who cry out "fraud" the loudest have subversion and fraud at the heart of their motivation.

  • But the fraud was not in the meters. It was in the configuration of the flow, and the induced backflow. The meters had nothing to do with it, although they did reveal the problem to McKubre and other sharp observers.



    Under heavy cross examination, JedRothwell admitted that the Defkalion meter was not manipulated to perpetrate fraud.


    Good grief! For crying out loud OF COURSE Defkalion committed fraud with the flow meter!!! I said that dozens of times, and Gamberale makes it 100% clear.


    I meant the other meters and equipment purchased from National Instruments. They did not supply the flow meter as far as I know. I am pretty sure it was clear from context that I meant that the NI equipment did not contribute to the fraud.


    Stating it simply, Defkalion's flow meter being good cannot prove that Rossi's flow meter is bad.


    Of course it cannot! That is an outrageous straw man argument. No one would claim that Defkalion's fraud magically proves Rossi's fraud. It just happens that both used the flow meters to commit fraud, albeit in different ways. Rossi used other instruments as well.


    But the fraud was not in the meters. It was in the configuration of the flow, and the induced backflow. The meters had nothing to do with it, although they did reveal the problem to McKubre and other sharp observers.


    That is the same meaning. Backflow induced an error in the flow meter. McKubre saw that the flow meter was malfunctioning. He did not know that backflow was the problem, and he did not know that the meter was inflating the flow rate, but he did see a problem.


    Stop quibbling, stop with the strawman arguments.

  • I have to say on evidence so far we do not know that flow mis-measurement caused or contributed to the fabricated Rossi results. But we do know that it could have 100% caused it. More likely, it contributed to it.


    The big deal for me is the Rossi assumption of 100% phase change. Without that the output power is nowhere near 1MW. Rossi (for dramatic effect?) has said that he will not measure the input temperature or count it. However, since he assumes 100% phase change, this has about 5X as much effect as the temperature change would - even if it is a full 60C chnage. we have no evidence it is that and Rossi has made sure there will be no official such evidence. I don't know whether any other data will emerge.


    How much phase change depends on exactly what goes on inside that (80mm?) pipe. It requires very careful monitoring and setup to even know what it is, since unmixed output (where you get water flow as well as steam) is possible. Also the temperature and pressure must be measured to determine how wet is the steam.


    The final issue is the data recording, which appears unsatisfactory, but i have no way to evaluate that. Discovery, and documents IH have not attached to the answer, may clarify this.


    The point about public information so far is that it does not include discovery, does not include anything else that IH may end up adding, does not include whatever comes out in examination of witnesses. So it is just an initial taste of the overall case. Rossi's reply will be similar.

  • [quote]......
    ....This all goes to show how FUD campaigns can be exposed through the patient though stubborn application of logic.........
    .


    Axil,
    You stated several times previously that "the IP thief" stole Defkalion's IP.
    You state in the above post that it was all "FUD" about Defkalion.


    I followed the Defkalion saga closely while they had their web site and then the move to Canada. They then disappeared as far as I can tell.


    So I must ask you, since you are posting that their IP was inequitably stolen from them and a smear (FUD) campaign was / is being promoted the following
    questions as you seem to have factual knowledge based upon your posts :


    1) Who is this "IP Thief"? I know of no one who is pursuing patents for Defkalion technology. I have not heard of anyone manufacturing Hyperion type reactors.
    For someone to steal IP, they must use it, otherwise it is not stolen. I can write down the words to a song that has a copyright, but unless I distribute or sell that
    song, I have done no illegal act. Are you stating that Defkalion had IP, but lost it once it was stolen? They did not record or document how to make the Hyperion
    so once the IP was stolen by the thief, they could not reproduce it? Is this why they dropped off the map? Please advise of who this IP thief is and how they
    stole IP?


    2) What did happened to Defkalion? They closed up shop in Greece and moved to Canada. They closed up shop there as well. What direct evidence
    of stolen IP or smear campaign (FUD) is linked to the closure of the company? You state above that FUD can be exposed by applying sound logic, I am interested
    in what logic you have to the closure and disappearance of Defkalion and how stolen IP and FUD caused it. Would it not be true, that if the Hyperion worked as stated, it would be worth
    billions? Why did Defkalion then disappear? Why are they not still pursuing this technology?


    3) The definition of "FUD", is Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. What component of Fear is being spread here? A test was conducted and questioned by a partner of Defkalion.
    Defkalion never answered the questions. This is not Fear. It was simple business. Defkalion may have created Uncertainty by their NOT answering to the issue. What is the Fear
    that is being "spread" by the campaign? Doubt has certainly been brought on by Defkalion themselves. They dropped off the map! It seems the Doubt is of their own making as well.


    I am not arguing against you. I truly want to know what happened to Defkalion. You seem to know so I am very interested the story.
    Sincerely.

  • I have to say on evidence so far we do not know that flow mis-measurement caused or contributed to the fabricated Rossi results. But we do know that it could have 100% caused it. More likely, it contributed to it.


    That is my guess. It contributed. I do not think the flow meter error could have been as high as 50. I personally have made stupid mistakes with flow meters, and I have gotten the wrong answer by a large factor, but not by 50.


    The big deal for me is the Rossi assumption of 100% phase change.


    I think a 100% phase change is extremely unlikely. I think the fluid was hot water, or a mixture of hot water and steam. Assume the temperature measurements were correct. That is not necessarily so, but let us assume they were. If it were only hot water, then the flowmeter would be off by a factor of ~3. That seems plausible to me.


    It might be a mixture of hot water and steam, so the flow meter error might be larger than 3. I think it is unlikely it is pure steam, given the low temperatures and the likely pressure. I think the pressure must have been higher than reported. See Exhibit 5, item 5, "The flow of steam through the pipe to J.M. Products."


    (Incidentally, in Exhibit 5 the pressure is described as 0.0 barG. In the data I saw, it was listed as 0.0 bar -- with no "G." Perhaps that was a mistake, and it should have been barG. Either number is impossible, as noted in Item 5.)


    The rust stains showed that the pipe was about half full. Maybe it was 1/3rd? I don't know, but anyway, I doubt there is a simple linear correspondence between the water level and the error. The pipe being half-full does not necessarily double the apparent flow rate. One thing is for sure: the manual for this meter specifically says this meter only works with a full pipe. I am sure the manufacturer knows that a partially empty pipe will cause a significant error.

  • 1) Who is this "IP Thief"? I know of no one who is pursuing patents for Defkalion technology. I have not heard of anyone manufacturing Hyperion type reactors.
    For someone to steal IP, they must use it, otherwise it is not stolen. I can write down the words to a song that has a copyright, but unless I distribute or sell that
    song, I have done no illegal act. Are you stating that Defkalion had IP, but lost it once it was stolen? They did not record or document how to make the Hyperion
    so once the IP was stolen by the thief, they could not reproduce it?


    Excellent questions! I do not expect coherent answers from Axil. These are among the many unknowable things that he claims to know. Or perhaps I should say, senseless things that he senses. He claims there is fear, uncertainty and doubt, yet no one fears, uncertainty has been removed by the tests, and anyone who still doubts the outcome is rather stupid, in my opinion, so these qualities are all in the wrong places. He tells us in an old fashioned radio drama voice that somewhere, someone fears something . . . Yeah? Who would that be, why are they so afraid, and of what??


    I think the term "FUD" is overused around here.

  • The rust stains showed that the pipe was about half full. Maybe it was 1/3rd? I don't know, but anyway, I doubt there is a simple linear correspondence between the water level and the error. The pipe being half-full does not necessarily double the apparent flow rate. One thing is for sure: the manual for this meter specifically says this meter only works with a full pipe. I am sure the manufacturer knows that a partially empty pipe will cause a significant error.


    Are you suggesting that the rust stain was produced by flowing water?

  • Quote

    Bob: I have not heard of anyone manufacturing Hyperion type reactors.


    Have you looked at the AirBus patents? Where did that tech come from? You can be certain that Defkalion did not give AirBus that reactor design. If Defkalion has "nothing", why has those patent application been made?


    Gamberale left Defkalion after nine months and has started his own company to conduct research and development in LENRs, according to his LinkedIn profile.


    Vandenberghe wrote to New Energy Times that “Airbus Group has signed a letter of intent” to work with his company. In recent weeks, AirBus group has just updated their 2013 patent application copying the Defkalion reactor design. That design had to have come from Gamberale...who said Defkalion had nothing.


    But justice will work out in the end. MFMP latest video has shown that much if not all of the Defkalion tech and by way of reuse, the AirBus tech copy is open source since the Thomas Cannon patent has expired.


    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016…on-part-1-new-mfmp-video/


    A post from Peter has some info about Deflation as follows:




    Peter Gluck
    Aug 9 (1 day ago)


    to VORTEX
    Jed,


    your logic is flawed but you must demonstrate no heat excess and Rossi
    was scamming.
    I know well what errors cn you make with many instruments I have worked 40 years in the chemical industry. You are here lying shemelessly with" ou claimed that it is impossible to make mistakes with flowmeters' I told tyht what yoiu said- re cheating with flowmeters is totally false and imoral.


    Youi have shown that the flowmeter used by Rossi can have some error if
    working a bit under the minimum flow not that he made fraud. I hope you will abandon this moronism with pipes half full.
    As regarding Defkalion, they wanted to speak with you but then they were informed that you are working for a group interested in their IP and have told you to not come. From here your hatred.
    As regarding the Gambearle report it is about error not fraud. You say you worked with flowmeters, can you mimic the logical results from the 9 hours yest at ICCF-18 working with two simple valves and a flowmeter? Can you attain controllable reverse flaw?
    Defkalion failed due to materials science reasons could not heat when changed fro plug sparkks to direct plasma discharge.


    A pipe having air all the time must get it by injection, and half the volume
    is much. A few bubbles do not make harm.


    Why you cannot answer t=re schematic- simple not secret- pipes and flowmeter, horizonal vertical. You are- and it is not an offense but a compliment kind of scammer. add noproofs to your titles.

  • That is not necessarily so, but let us assume they were. If it were only hot water, then the flowmeter would be off by a factor of ~3.


    JED: Now You completely missed the track. The flow meter was measuring the water flowing back to teh E-cat!


    Do You really believe that steam moved back??


    One more thing to take into count: One E-cat core got about 4ccm (4ml) of water per second. How wet could the surface become, if they used injection nozzle?

  • So far, we have no copy of a contract between Penon and IH



    IH paid Penon's salary. IH even recounted their frustrating, and ultimately unsuccessful, attempts to get their very own employee...whom as you say was probably paid quite well, to answer their concerns after the test -to which he demanded, according to IH, his final check (what is it about those cheeky Ita...oh never mind :) )


    So he was their contracted employee. Yes, we do not see the employment agreement for him, as IH provided in depth for Fabiani. I can't explain that. But any neutral observer with an ounce of intelligence, would have the expectation that he (Penon) would logically respond to the ones writing his checks, over someone like Rossi. That may even raise eyebrows with the american jury.

  • Do You really believe that steam moved back??

    Jed is describing possible artifacts. What actually happened may be obscure. However, about steam moving back, does Wyttenbach "really believe" that it did not? How would he know?


    I have suggested the creation of loopback steam as a way to imitate a megawatt reactor. It would fool a flow meter into overstating flow, and, as well, if some of the water is evaporated already, the heat to evaporate it all would be much less. And Rossi told Penon not to look at the input temperature "to be generous."


    But we do not know what happened, and it is actually moot. Planet Rossi is gloating over inconsequential details of the Answer ("Darden is not a manager at Cherokee") as if any error automatically means Rossi Wins. Rossi is gloating and supremely confident. If he understands the issues, he's actually lying. But he might not.


    JONP:


    Rossi charged fraud against Darden and Vaughn with no evidence of it, in fact, beyond his belief. He can do that in a complaint, he doesn't have to prove it. However, sauce for the goose....


    IH has actually alleged direct evidence of fraud, which he here calls "no evidence." And the counterclaim is "terrible slanders." But the Complaint wasn't? (He means "libels," however, pleadings are generally immune to libel claims.)


    He and his friends are facing serious possible consequences. This would be a time to take it seriously. Yes, if he has contrary evidence, present it!


    He's been claiming that JM Products is a real company. That should be easy to show. Is it? If not, he will not merely lose the lawsuit, hands down, but he's up for fraud claims, and so is Johnson, the President of JM Products and the President as well of Leonardo Corporation. Johnson could be disbarred. It's a friggin' mess he created for his friends.


    But if the customer is real, easy-peasy, no problem. That does not mean that Rossi automatically wins, he actually has other serious hurdles to jump to get close to that.


    If there really is an independent customer, nevertheless Rossi's behavior demonstrated some serious problems with the "independence" of this customer, which was actually managed by the President of Leonardo and Rossi. The fraud claim might not be completely dead.


    Remember that just because a claim is in the Answer doesn't meant that the defendant will actually use it. Rossi is amused, eh? This could get very, very expensive.

    But on Planet Rossi, they are throwing a party! Woo hoo! Look at that silly Answer! Rossi will win now!!!


    I'm reminded of a friend of my son, on a mountainside in New Mexico. My son said, "Watch out! That's poison oak!" The friend said "No, it's not! I'll prove it!" And he grabbed some and rubbed it on his face.


    He did not go blind, but he was hospitalized and could not see for quite a time. It can be very dangerous to believe one is right and others are wrong.

  • That is not necessarily so, but let us assume they were. If it were only hot water, then the flowmeter would be off by a factor of ~3.



    JED: Now You completely missed the track. The flow meter was measuring the water flowing back to teh E-cat!


    You misunderstand. The COP was 50. If you assume the fluid was water, not steam, that reduces the COP to 3. If you assume the actual COP was 1, that means the flow meter error was off by a factor of 3.


    (Actually, I think the thermometers were wrong as well, which would change the numbers.)